Help me understand this

[holyrood]

To have a parent question the decisions that my husband and I made together was none of their business, and to say “God only sends what people can handle” is a very polite way of handling an awkward situation. … It’s a ‘go to’ reply to questions that are rude and prying.

She is fulfilling her potential.

This is what I was trying to say in an earlier post. I think what people sometimes call pro-woman is really only putting pressure on women and dismissing the incredible value of what many women want to do, and do well, and that is so vitally important to all of society: raise their children.

So my question is does the daughter properly understand church teaching?

Either:

1. She currently wants and accepts children as fast as they will come
2. She is practicing NFP that is not working for her and she is hiding behind the “we will have as many as god gives us” mentality…in which case I don’t really understand because saying that she is TRYING to space out her family, but things aren’t working out that way is completely in line with church teaching… in fact it may help the OP to understand that she is TRYING to be a responsible parent.

She needs to understand that …

I agree with much of what you said, but we haven’t heard from the daughter herself. We know only what her father relayed to us, and as Penny points out, her answer may reflect only a polite way of dealing with an overly personal question.

Both your options are critical of a person from whom we have not heard. The whole ‘as fast as they come’ thing is offensive, implying a mindset that I think few people really have.

I also take exception to the constant attitude, even among Catholics, that a small family is ‘responsible,’ and that perhaps more children are ‘irresponsible.’ As has been pointed out, it sounds like this couple would have trouble making ends meet with no children. The career, location, and possibly a belief that manicures are a necessary part of life, are at the root of the problem, from the sounds of it.

There is NFP that works well.

I know lots of people who think NFP works great because they never get pregnant. What they don’t seem to realize is that many women and/or men are simply not that fertile to begin with. There are other people who are very fertile and get pregnant repeatedly despite the pill, condoms, IUDs, NFP, and more.

This couple is having kids they can’t support which makes them no different than the teen moms.

A sacramental marriage in a couple makes love to each other is nothing at all like teen moms.

Look I didn’t mean manicures every week. But I don’t think it’s silly to want your grown children to have some quality of life. Some small amount of flexibility with their money. Life should not be all drudgery, work, sleepless nights, toil and sacrifice. Raising kids kids is great but it has to be balanced with an adult life too…

… You can say having a kid every 18 months for 25 years and never doing anything but cook, clean, clip coupons and take care of kids is enough for some but for most people, that’s a recipe for misery and feeling unfulfilled. She is just not the Holly Hobby type.

Because she has four children now does not mean she’s going to remain fertile for another 20 years. This is simply not true.

Further, you equate ‘quality of life’ with very certain things. You’re going by yourI’m sure my parents look at my life much as you look at your daughter’s. I don’t have three sets of china for everyday, Sunday, and holidays. Oh, no! I don’t have crystal chandeliers. Oh, no again! I work hard. I’ve changed hundreds more diapers than my mother did.

BUT I’M HAPPY.

I made my choices, I own them, I look at the results, and I would choose them again. I don’t miss three sets of china. Given a choice, I’d choose my large family over the chandeliers every single time. I went years without dinners out, and I feel no loss at all.

1KE said it well. You view raising a large family as drudgery. Many people do. I wish you could see the JOY. My older children come home for Christmas, and there’s excitement, laughing, playing together, bringing friends home, taking their younger siblings out, making movies together, playing musical instruments together. I have a treasure trove of beautiful memories, from the time there were two of them begging for a brother, and three of them begging for a sister, and four of them some wanting another brother and some wanting another sister and I warned them to knock it off before I got pregnant with twins! Which I did, lol, but it was two boys.

I have albums full of pictures of drives to the shore. Everyone at church knows us and comments on what nice kids they are. They volunteer at church. They do well in school. There’s laughter in our home, and a dynamic that wouldn’t exist if more than half of them were missing. My daughters get a kick out of people’s reactions to how many brothers they have. We take joke pictures poking fun at ‘life in a large family.’ I’m eternally grateful for the friend who challenged me to live my faith if I claimed to ‘be’ Catholic.

I wish you could see your daughter’s life and her children as something other than ‘drudgery.’

Your initial question was to help you understand. I don’t know if you feel you understand any better with 13 pages of answers. Have you read any of Theology of the Body or Humanae Vitae to see why the Catholic Church teaches as it does?

 

[holyrood]

You’re missing the point which is this woman will KEEP making babies at taxpayer’s expense. She doesn’t care. Nowhere in the bible do they talk about having babies on welfare. She can have 20 kids I don’t care, but maybe she needs to get a job to support those kids.

And this is exactly part of the problem with our current welfare state. The government takes our money to give benefits to the poor, and then when the working poor or middle class–who are in fact working and paying taxes into this system–qualify for the benefits for which they themselves are paying taxes–now suddenly a whole bunch of people feel they have the right to tell a married couple how to run their private life.

Let’s assume for a minute that maybe this couple actually does use NFP, and maybe, like so many other women in this world, she is very fertile and would get pregnant regardless of what birth control she’s using. Because every single birth control has a failure rate.

What is your answer? To tell a married couple they may not be intimate?

I hope that some of the answers in this thread have been valuable to FordDad, as far as ways this couple may help themselves improve their financial lot.

 

[The_Bucket]

You’re missing the point which is this woman will KEEP making babies at taxpayer’s expense. She doesn’t care. Nowhere in the bible do they talk about having babies on welfare. She can have 20 kids I don’t care, but maybe she needs to get a job to support those kids.

Speculation and judgment. How do you know that’s the case? Maybe they literally have only had sex four times and it resulted in conception every time. I find that to be highly unlikely, but it is possible, is it not? You’re projecting and assuming without facts in evidence.

Nowhere in the Bible do they discuss welfare at all. It’s the latent Puritanism in this country that spawned the secular mindset that degrades “welfare babies” and whatnot. I’ve already said my piece about how the OP should freely subsidize his daughter and grandchildren or not give them another dime. I’ve come down firmly on the side of not giving her any more money, and if you’ll notice… so have most other people here in this thread!

Where we disagree vehemently is the rhetoric you and to a lesser extent the OP is using. It’s pretty disgusting and only adds ammunition to the other side that pro-life folks stop caring about children after they’re born.

 

[The_Bucket]

And this is exactly part of the problem with our current welfare state. The government takes our money to give benefits to the poor, and then when the working poor or middle class–who are in fact working and paying taxes into this system–qualify for the benefits for which they themselves are paying taxes–now suddenly a whole bunch of people feel they have the right to tell a married couple how to run their private life.

Let’s assume for a minute that maybe this couple actually does use NFP, and maybe, like so many other women in this world, she is very fertile and would get pregnant regardless of what birth control she’s using. Because every single birth control has a failure rate.

What is your answer? To tell a married couple they may not be intimate?

I hope that some of the answers in this thread have been valuable to FordDad, as far as ways this couple may help themselves improve their financial lot.

All the more reason I’m starting to come on board with a Universal Basic Income idea. If we all had a guaranteed income then maybe the resentment would ease up. But probably not.

I’d rather just cut checks to the poor and hope that they use the money wisely than make them go through hoops like Section 8 housing, SNAP, WIC, etc. Just give them money. Maybe they’ll use it properly. Maybe not. But at least they’d have an opportunity to budget as opposed to being caught in the poverty trap of making too much money and then no longer qualifying for still-needed benefits.

 

[Mandychu22]

You’re missing the point which is this woman (Uhhh, I hope you mean couple? Last time I checked, at least, women don’t make babies alone.) will KEEP making babies at taxpayer’s expense. We have no idea what their actual financial situation is, beyond the fact that they can’t afford to live in their current area (which happens to be expensive relative to most other areas).

She doesn’t care. You know this how? What would you recommend if they’ve been attempting NFP and failing at it? Abortion? Complete abstinence until we all vote that their income is now acceptable? I hope you never require any help, and thus have to deal with such a judgmental attitude.

Nowhere in the bible do they talk about having babies on welfare.Nowhere in the bible do they talk about a minimum income before you should dare have sex with your spouse. Or about how inappropriate and immoral social assistance programs are.

She can have 20 kids I don’t care, but maybe she needs to get a job to support those kids.

You’re operating under quite a few assumptions here, such as that she’s actively trying to get pregnant (which even the OP doesn’t know), that the only action to be taken to make the finances more manageable is for her to get a job outside the home (it’s not, there are plenty of less expensive areas to live), that she’ll be able to earn enough to make working outside the home a positive monetary exchange (daycare isn’t cheap)…

I guess it doesn’t matter, as long as she’s not lazing around the house all day, taking care of her childr- I mean mooching off society. Particularly now that she’s pregnant again. Finding a job while pregnant is a cakewalk.

After all, we all know that money is more important than people.

 

[TeachCatechism]

When the baby is born she can find another job instead of mooching off taxpayers. Welfare was never intended for those who want to keep making babies and not pay for it. Maybe her husband can get another job as well. She can’t be that stupid to realize that someone is paying for her. My taxes keep going up because of people like them. If they had a large family I wouldn’t care as long as they support that family.

 

[Mandychu22]

When the baby is born she can find another job instead of mooching off taxpayers. Welfare was never intended for those who want to keep making babies and not pay for it. Maybe her husband can get another job as well. She can’t be that stupid to realize that someone is paying for her. My taxes keep going up because of people like them. If they had a large family I wouldn’t care as long as they support that family.

Why do you think they’re on welfare? Government health insurance =/= welfare. And even if they were on welfare, you have absolutely no knowledge about the circumstances under which these children were conceived. Nor should you.

You still haven’t addressed the fact that daycare for 4 children can easily cost more than a single person can bring in from a full time job. And that children benefit greatly from parental care, particularly at such a young age. Even if they were a burden on society (a sentiment I most assuredly would not agree with) those children will pay back what they mooched as children when they become adults and enter the workforce.

If they were using NFP and she ovulated 6 days early, or twice in one cycle, what do you think the alternative to having more children is for most people? You are actively perpetuating the attitudes that lead to abortion.

They are accepting money from the OP, but we have no idea what would happen if that situation stopped. Maybe they would move to a more affordable area, maybe the SIL would enter a different field of work or get a second job. You have know knowledge of the disposition of their hearts.

The judgmental and hateful, not to mention money-centric, attitude you display here reflects more on you than on them.

 

[holyrood]

Why do you think they’re on welfare? Government health insurance =/= welfare. And even if they were on welfare, you have absolutely no knowledge about the circumstances under which these children were conceived. Nor should you.

You still haven’t addressed the fact that daycare for 4 children can easily cost more than a single person can bring in from a full time job. And that children benefit greatly from parental care, particularly at such a young age. Even if they were a burden on society (a sentiment I most assuredly would not agree with) those children will pay back what they mooched as children when they become adults and enter the workforce.

If they were using NFP and she ovulated 6 days early, or twice in one cycle, what do you think the alternative to having more children is for most people? You are actively perpetuating the attitudes that lead to abortion.

They are accepting money from the OP, but we have no idea what would happen if that situation stopped. Maybe they would move to a more affordable area, maybe the SIL would enter a different field of work or get a second job. You have know knowledge of the disposition of their hearts.

The judgmental and hateful, not to mention money-centric, attitude you display here reflects more on you than on them.

In full agreement. The hate and judgment are appalling. And this person teaches catechism?

 

[7armyrugrats]

When the baby is born she can find another job instead of mooching off taxpayers. Welfare was never intended for those who want to keep making babies and not pay for it. Maybe her husband can get another job as well. She can’t be that stupid to realize that someone is paying for her. My taxes keep going up because of people like them. If they had a large family I wouldn’t care as long as they support that family.

You do realize that this is the exact same mindset that started the Planned Parenthood movement, do you not? The majority of children born in this world are born into poverty. My husband grew up in worse poverty than most can imagine in a rural village in Mexico in an adobe hut with dirt floors. To this day the town has no running water. They got electricity in the 1990’s long after my husband had moved away from home. No one owns a car. The town has two telephones, no internet, no cable TV. The only way a person can go to school beyond 6th grade is to move away from home. If someone wants a job beyond working in the cornfield or opening their own store, they have to leave town. There is a free government clinic, a Catholic Church, a kindergarten, a primary school, and 1,500 people. All the people are happy. No one is depressed. They have an average of 4-5 children. Some are never able to have kids. A few families have 6+ kids. Most homes are one room, not one bedroom but one room total. The kitchen is outside where mom/daughter/grandma cooks on an open fire. The shower is a bucket surrounded by rice bag walls. The toilet is an out house farther away from the house. By your assessment no one in this town should ever have a child. They should all be miserable and run down. But amazingly everyone there is happy. No one has heard of postpartum depression, no one commits suicide. Generations of families all live in the same little room. If a family has a little more money they may add a room or enclose the kitchen. Many families will have 35 people or more living together–grandparents, children, grandchildren and sometimes great grandchildren.

Before someone points out that it is fine for a family somewhere else in the world to live that way, but we Americans must live differently, that is ridiculous. Are there people in my husband’s town who want better? Of course! My husband is here, along with millions of other immigrants. But are the ones who stay unhappy and miserable? Absolutely not. They are not sinful for having children they cannot support. They are not wrong for reproducing. And neither is a loving, married couple here in the US that chooses to share the love they have for one another with the fruit of that love. A Catholic couple vows to accept and educate children in the faith, they do not vow to only have children when they have an income high enough to support them at the standard society sees fit and only as many as society deems prudent. As a catechism teacher you should know this. You do know that the Church teaches that the primary purpose of marriage is to have children right?

 

[TeachCatechism]

Why do you think they’re on welfare? Government health insurance =/= welfare. And even if they were on welfare, you have absolutely no knowledge about the circumstances under which these children were conceived. Nor should you.

You still haven’t addressed the fact that daycare for 4 children can easily cost more than a single person can bring in from a full time job. And that children benefit greatly from parental care, particularly at such a young age. Even if they were a burden on society (a sentiment I most assuredly would not agree with) those children will pay back what they mooched as children when they become adults and enter the workforce.

If they were using NFP and she ovulated 6 days early, or twice in one cycle, what do you think the alternative to having more children is for most people? You are actively perpetuating the attitudes that lead to abortion.

They are accepting money from the OP, but we have no idea what would happen if that situation stopped. Maybe they would move to a more affordable area, maybe the SIL would enter a different field of work or get a second job. You have know knowledge of the disposition of their hearts.

The judgmental and hateful, not to mention money-centric, attitude you display here reflects more on you than on them.

Then she can work when her husband is at home so he can watch the kids. There’s no excuse for this behavior of having kids you can’t afford on assistance.

 

[TeachCatechism]

In full agreement. The hate and judgment are appalling. And this person teaches catechism?

If you paid a lot in taxes for moochers and lived in an area full of them you would feel the same. I’m tired of paying for them, especially considering until recently poor childless didn’t get medicaid. Childless also pay more in taxes. So yep tired of this mindset and would rather donate money (which I do)to help people instead of forced to support it.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Then she can work when her husband is at home so he can watch the kids. There’s no excuse for this behavior of having kids you can’t afford on assistance.

After looking at the posts you make here and the posts on your own thread, I think you really need to consider how much you look down on other people. It may be part of the reason you are experiencing the issue you made your thread about. Please try to examine yourself honestly and work on you anger and resentment. You may find many things in life improve for you. When we spend so much time looking down on others we forget to look up to God and see that He really does have all of this in His Hands. He has it all under control and we just need to accept that He knows our needs and provides for us. Jesus explains this well by saying that God cares for the flowers and birds and we are much more important than them. Of course He will provide for us as well. Please start looking up and stop always looking down. Your answers come from up there, and you know, He may see YOU as beneath Him just as you see others as beneath yourself.

…Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us…
Do unto unto others…
Let the children come to me…

 

[FordDad1958]

Look, I don’t like that the kids are on government health care any more than you do. I find it very sad and upsetting. But my daughter is not a “moocher.” It’s better than letting them be uninsured (which I wouldn’t allow - I’d buy a policy before that happened.) And this is not a long-term solution, either. Please be respectful, this is my adult child.

 

[PumpkinPies37]

Please reconsider your opinion regarding raising a large family. You consider it to be all toil and drudgery. Every post is about how horrible it is and how your daughter will hate it.

My friends with large families-- 5-8 children-- all LOVE having children, they CHOOSE to have these children. In fact, my friends who are all in my age bracket are lamenting that they can’t have MORE children.

Yes my friend with 8 kids would love to have 9 or 10 but at 48 has not been able to get pregnant again. They LOVE babies, they do not view ANY of their family life as drudgery or toil. Not poopy diapers. Not sleepless nights. Not any part of their family life.

They do not view their lives the way you view their lives.

Step outside yourself and try to see that your goals, your values, and your beliefs about the life your daughter has chosen is not a universal perspective. What may be something completely unappealing and incomprehensible to you is something that others love, and they would find your version of “the good life” unappealing.

Neither life is wrong. They are simply different. What comes across in your posts is that you think this chosen path is inherently wrong. Wrong for your daughter, and moreover it comes across that you think it’s wrong for everybody. Crazy in fact.

I think that’s what people are reacting to-- the idea you have that this life is so repulsive no one would choose it voluntarily. You are quite wrong in that regard, and I’d just ask that you try to see how insulting it is to others.

You are a loving father and grandfather. That is clear. What’s not clear is what is at the root of your daughter’s dependence on you financially. Something more is going on here.

Yes!! This is excellent.

This thread is fascinating, btw. But, YES, everything this person just said…

 

[PumpkinPies37]

After looking at the posts you make here and the posts on your own thread, I think you really need to consider how much you look down on other people. It may be part of the reason you are experiencing the issue you made your thread about. Please try to examine yourself honestly and work on you anger and resentment. You may find many things in life improve for you. When we spend so much time looking down on others we forget to look up to God and see that He really does have all of this in His Hands. He has it all under control and we just need to accept that He knows our needs and provides for us. Jesus explains this well by saying that God cares for the flowers and birds and we are much more important than them. Of course He will provide for us as well. Please start looking up and stop always looking down. Your answers come from up there, and you know, He may see YOU as beneath Him just as you see others as beneath yourself.

…Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us…
Do unto unto others…
Let the children come to me…

 

[Annie39]

If you paid a lot in taxes for moochers and lived in an area full of them you would feel the same. I’m tired of paying for them, especially considering until recently poor childless didn’t get medicaid. Childless also pay more in taxes. So yep tired of this mindset and would rather donate money (which I do)to help people instead of forced to support it.

We are over burdened with taxes but it almost never gets to those in real need. It is not the struggling few who I resent the most. I resent that my tax dollars go to companies like Solyndra and organizations like planned parenthood et al. It would indeed be better if taxes were not so burdensome so that we could give as we are commanded. Matthew 25 was not written to the government but to all of us individually. We stand before the Lord on judgment day as individuals not as part of a collective group of citizens. Having said that, if I were you I would take to heart what you were told by a few people here like 7armyrugrats and others have said about your attitude. You come across as a very angry and arrogant person. I am related to someone who is very much like you. She is in her forties and is beautiful too. You say you were a model, she was in TV commercials but her personality is abrasive. Guess what? She can’t find a husband either.

Annie

 

[Mandychu22]

Look, I don’t like that the kids are on government health care any more than you do. I find it very sad and upsetting. But my daughter is not a “moocher.” It’s better than letting them be uninsured (which I wouldn’t allow - I’d buy a policy before that happened.) And this is not a long-term solution, either. Please be respectful, this is my adult child.

I hope you don’t think I was stating that … it was meant to be sarcastic, it least on my end.

Everyone where I come from (Canada) is on government healthcare (and I personally think everyone should be… it greatly reduces the cost of most procedures and medical equipment, and there are other benefits… but I’m getting off topic). I don’t understand the American idea that it’s a bad thing, although I can recognise that there’s a stigma attached to it.

In my mind it’s like complaining that people who attend state funded schools are moochers, and that you should only have kids if you can afford to send them to a private school where they won’t be eating up your tax dollars. Healthy citizens benefit society. Educated citizens benefit society.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Look, I don’t like that the kids are on government health care any more than you do. I find it very sad and upsetting. But my daughter is not a “moocher.” It’s better than letting them be uninsured (which I wouldn’t allow - I’d buy a policy before that happened.) And this is not a long-term solution, either. Please be respectful, this is my adult child.

Thank you for standing up for your daughter. I know you love her and want the best for her and her family. It’s nice to see you defend her even when you don’t agree with her choices. That is what a good father does. My dad was like that too. Having lots of kids was not an issue for him, but many of my other choices upset him. He was quick to let me know about them, but you know what? He was even quicker to defend me to others. I really miss my dad. He never got to know my four youngest kids. Only the two oldest even remember him at all. The other two sort of remember his funeral because the honor guard was there and he had the 21 gun salute (retired Army and police). As a matter of fact, my husband joined the Army partly due my dad’s funeral. I guess it inspired him. We saw my dad as a family at least once a week. I was a daddy’s girl. He was never able to help out like you do but I have no doubt he would have loved to do so.

The reason I think you need to help them learn to help themselves is that you never know how long you have here yourself. My dad died at the age of 65. I was 26 years old. My kids were 9, 4, 2 and 1. If I had been relying on him for financial support, we would have suffered more than just emotionally during that time. Please consider a different approach.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Look, I don’t like that the kids are on government health care any more than you do. I find it very sad and upsetting. But my daughter is not a “moocher.” It’s better than letting them be uninsured (which I wouldn’t allow - I’d buy a policy before that happened.) And this is not a long-term solution, either. Please be respectful, this is my adult child.

I apologize for some of the posters on here. Perhaps you are feeling a little of what I felt when I first read your initial post. They should not speak that way of your daughter. It would appear that your daughter is more in line with the Church than some others. You should be proud of that.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Everyone where I come from (Canada) is on government healthcare (and I personally think everyone should be… it greatly reduces the cost of most procedures and medical equipment, and there are other benefits… but I’m getting off topic). I don’t understand the American idea that it’s a bad thing, although I can recognise that there’s a stigma attached to it.

This is interesting to me. ANd it really gets to the heart of what I was saying earlier. As Catholics, as humans, and as Christians we are not guided by a different set of moral rules because of the country we live in or geo political systems. In Canada everyone is on government healthcare. In America that has a stigma. And as you can see, brings on emotion, anger even, about something as simple as the first command ever given to humanity from the mouth of God. And something as personal as sexual intimacy between a husband and wife. Anyone who makes the argument about government assistance and procreation is first and foremost a political person and not a faithful person. I am a white republican american male. I was raised on Rush Limbaugh and Trickle Down Economics. And yet, I cannot let that become over and above my faith.

Pope Francis taught me that. Well, and Jesus.