Help me with Hell

[LJH_80]

I am having a problem with the concept of Hell.

Many of my good friends are non-Christians. If I get into Heaven, and they go into Hell, then this poses a problem to me.

Imagine a dear friend of yours is burning alive in extreme pain.
Now imagine yourself sitting back watching, saying “Wow, this really is paradise!”
I cannot imagine myself feeling blissful for eternity knowing that people I care about are suffering unimaginable torment for all eternity.

I know that in Heaven you don’t just sit and watch the people being tormented, but that doesn’t mean you don’t know that it’s happening.

This leads me to three possible conclusions:
1.) Heaven is not perfect bliss, in fact it is terrible knowing how many people are suffering.
2.) God will “fix” me so I no longer care about other people.
3.) People who have issues with other people’s suffering don’t get into Heaven.

If there is a 4th option please let me know. (Please do NOT post “well, I dunno, but I imagine God has a plan.” While it may be true, that doesn’t actually get us anywhere).

 

[Bballer32]

I am having a problem with the concept of Hell.

Many of my good friends are non-Christians. If I get into Heaven, and they go into Hell, then this poses a problem to me.

Imagine a dear friend of yours is burning alive in extreme pain.
Now imagine yourself sitting back watching, saying “Wow, this really is paradise!”
I cannot imagine myself feeling blissful for eternity knowing that people I care about are suffering unimaginable torment for all eternity.

I know that in Heaven you don’t just sit and watch the people being tormented, but that doesn’t mean you don’t know that it’s happening.

This leads me to three possible conclusions:
1.) Heaven is not perfect bliss, in fact it is terrible knowing how many people are suffering.
2.) God will “fix” me so I no longer care about other people.
3.) People who have issues with other people’s suffering don’t get into Heaven.

If there is a 4th option please let me know. (Please do NOT post “well, I dunno, but I imagine God has a plan.” While it may be true, that doesn’t actually get us anywhere).

Well first of all let’s get this straight… God doesn’t send people to hell. That’s our choice to make.

Now, think of this. In the marriage vows,the couple agrees to the words “Until death do us part.” This means that one can remarry if their spouse dies. What does that have to do with this thread? It basically means that the spouse that dies has no more feelings or emotions; only eternal joy, which God has granted them. This allows the other spouse on earth to marry without committing a sin.

All of this is the same with friendship also. Just change a few words and meanings and it’s the same thing.

God Bless

 

[cerad2]

I don’t know of this will help or not but the very fact that you are asking such a question pretty much guarantees that you won’t have to worry about how people in heaven will deal with this.

 

[LJH_80]

Well first of all let’s get this straight… God doesn’t send people to hell. That’s our choice to make.

So I take it you’re in the #3 camp?

People choose not to be Christians, this is true.
But people make a lot of dumb choices. So let’s say, instead, that you’re having a barbecue in your back yard, and your friend chooses to cover the coals with gasoline before lighting them. He lights the fire, it goes FWOOSH, and he is now on fire as a direct result of his choices. I don’t blame anyone but him for this, I don’t claim that the fire chose to burn him, but that doesn’t mean I’m happy about watching my friend burn.

Also, as for the line, “God doesn’t send people to hell” I would argue that God does choose that people go to hell.
God is all-powerful, yes?
Ergo, God COULD create another place for them to be, if He wanted to, yes?
We also know that God must be able to create a place that is not Heaven, but not eternal, unimaginable torment. We know that because we are currently in such a place.

By this logic, God has chosen that that the choices be Heaven or Hell.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

God said that you will not feel pain or sadness from those in hell because he will seperate us from the sin, and hell is sin. They chose to put themselves there. They had a great gift offered to them. And on top of that, it was free. They chose not to take it. Also, God said that we will not remember the sin, which means we will not think about those in hell. They will be separated from us, and we will be okay with that because we will not have any sorrow in heaven. I’m trying to remember the exact verses but I can’t. If I find them I will re-post here.

Since you’re a human it is hard to concept, but God said that we will be completely separated and our minds erased of sin. Since they will be living in sin (hell), we will not be concerned of them. I know it sounds mean, but it is not. It is a choice. If we really had to worry about everyone in hell then we would be in non-stop depression.

 

[Bballer32]

So I take it you’re in the #3 camp?

People choose not to be Christians, this is true.
But people make a lot of dumb choices. So let’s say, instead, that you’re having a barbecue in your back yard, and your friend chooses to cover the coals with gasoline before lighting them. He lights the fire, it goes FWOOSH, and he is now on fire as a direct result of his choices. I don’t blame anyone but him for this, I don’t claim that the fire chose to burn him, but that doesn’t mean I’m happy about watching my friend burn.

God is all-powerful, yes?
Ergo, God COULD create another place for them to be, if He wanted to, yes?
We also know that God must be able to create a place that is not Heaven, but not eternal, unimaginable torment. We know that because we are currently in such a place.

By this logic, God has chosen that that the choices be Heaven or Hell.

I understand where you are coming from on the point of standing there and watching your friend burn without wanting to help. But, God made heaven a place of JOY… No sorrow no worries no nothing. So you could basically say that God wipes away all feelings of sorrow and guilt etc. and leaves behind happiness and joy. This means that we have no knowledge of friends from earth or as i said in the first one, our previous spouses. We just have the knowledge of everlasting happiness with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Mary, all the saints and angels, etc. We will not have the feelings of worrying for our friends or anything like that.

Also, as for the line, “God doesn’t send people to hell” I would argue that God does choose that people go to hell.

Now, you’re talking about predestination right? The belief brought up by John Calvin that from birth you are destined to either heaven or hell, which therefore completely shuns out the existence of free will. God knows our every move. We have an infinite amount of choices to make every millisecond. God sees the future with ever little millisecond a bit differently.

 

[LJH_80]

God said that you will not feel pain or sadness from those in hell because he will seperate us from the sin, and hell is sin. They chose to put themselves there. They had a great gift offered to them. And on top of that, it was free. They chose not to take it. Also, God said that we will not remember the sin, which means we will not think about those in hell. They will be separated from us, and we will be okay with that because we will not have any sorrow in heaven. I’m trying to remember the exact verses but I can’t. If I find them I will re-post here.

Since you’re a human it is hard to concept, but God said that we will be completely separated and our minds erased of sin. Since they will be living in sin (hell), we will not be concerned of them. I know it sounds mean, but it is not. It is a choice. If we really had to worry about everyone in hell then we would be in non-stop depression.

That is an internally consistent argument, essentially #2 on my list.
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[ASimon]

Now, you’re talking about predestination right? The belief brought up by John Calvin that from birth you are destined to either heaven or hell, which therefore completely shuns out the existence of free will. God knows our every move. We have an infinite amount of choices to make every millisecond. God sees the future with ever little millisecond a bit differently.

No, he’s not talking about predestination. He’s saying that God created hell (or allows it to remain as it is), and that God created the rules for who goes there and who doesn’t. Given these facts, you can’t turn around and absolve God of his responsibility for people winding up there.

 

[LJH_80]

I understand where you are coming from on the point of standing there and watching your friend burn without wanting to help. But, God made heaven a place of JOY… No sorrow no worries no nothing. So you could basically say that God wipes away all feelings of sorrow and guilt etc. and leaves behind happiness and joy. This means that we have no knowledge of friends from earth or as i said in the first one, our previous spouses. We just have the knowledge of everlasting happiness with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Mary, all the saints and angels, etc. We will not have the feelings of worrying for our friends or anything like that.

So then #2 is the consensus?

Now, you’re talking about predestination right? The belief brought up by John Calvin that from birth you are destined to either heaven or hell, which therefore completely shuns out the existence of free will. God knows our every move. We have an infinite amount of choices to make every millisecond. God sees the future with ever little millisecond a bit differently.

I’m not talking about predestination. I’m talking about what I said in the next lines after the one you quoted.
I’m saying that God could (assuming He is omnipotent) create an alternative to Hell.
People choose whether or not to accept God’s offer. If they accept that offer, God allows them into Heaven. If they do not, they must go someplace. God could choose to simply put those souls to an eternal sleep, or to make a makeshift Earth for them to live out an existence much like the one we currently experience. Why did He make eternal torment the other option?

 

[TheInquisitor]

Don’t forget Invincible Ignorance. Catholics believe that as long as people live to the best of their conscience, then they have a chance at heaven as well. Not only Christians will be in heaven.

So basically, your non Christian friends are only hell bound if they specifically know that Christianity is the truth and reject it on those grounds.

So, in Heaven, I don’t think you’ll be very sad as people really will choose to place themselves in Hell because God provides all people the grace to go to Heaven, it’s our choice.

 

[AlexPetrosPio]

There is a 4th option that sounds crass on this side of Heaven, but makes since logically: our God is a just God, so we somberly rejoice in His justice in allowing the unfortunate souls to keep with the choice they picked, and that’s to reject God. And that makes it all the more reason to pray for the souls who have passed away so in the hour of our death, we choose God.

 

[Bballer32]

I’m not talking about predestination. I’m talking about what I said in the next lines after the one you quoted.
I’m saying that God could (assuming He is omnipotent) create an alternative to Hell.
People choose whether or not to accept God’s offer. If they accept that offer, God allows them into Heaven. If they do not, they must go someplace. God could choose to simply put those souls to an eternal sleep, or to make a makeshift Earth for them to live out an existence much like the one we currently experience. Why did He make eternal torment the other option?

Also, as for the line, “God doesn’t send people to hell” I would argue that God does choose that people go to hell.

Those words right there.

 

[Jessup]

Somebody actually made a Jack Chick Parody about this same topic, how ever I think its to offensive to post here.
Let me add by just saying,
The whole idea that I’m put in this situation where I have to follow these covenants and rules in order to not be thrown into a stinky fire hole to burn alive for infinity is quite disturbing enough as it is. I have a hard time making sound decisions as it is; in regards to what I need to do for my lunch let a lone how I am going to handle my post mortal life destination for the next (10)^00 years.
At what point did God think I could handle this responsibility?,:
confused: I’m under qualified.
Oh and let me tell you, after 2 years of engineering mathematics,where you learn about about infinity; it makes the thought of hell that much more disturbing, you really grasp a understanding of how short this life is after finding out how big infinity is.

I’m more of a pascal Catholic

 

[CaseyDeAnn]

First of all, the Church does not teach that everyone who isn’t Christian is going to hell. God is the perfect judge; He knows what is in our hearts.

Secondly, hell is a state of being, not a physical place.

Lastly, ponder on this quote by M. Voris:

“God does not throw anyone into hell. The soul casts itself into hell because it cannot stand to be in the Divine Presence; it is painful to it. Hell is actually God’s mercy. He has given the soul a place where it can be away from Him, because to be in His presence would be more torturous than to be in hell.”

 

[LJH_80]

Those words right there.

I’m not sure where the communication breakdown is, so I will try one more time.

If a mugger comes to you and says “Give me your money or I will shoot you.” He has given you a choice. While you are still free to choose which of the options you take, the mugger is responsible for providing you with those two options. The robber could have offered “Give me your money or I will look at you crossly.”
Predestination applies at the stage in which the mugee is deciding whether to fork over the cash. That is a point after the mugger has already created that choice. I am curious why God created the choice he did… but even that isn’t the subject of this post.

Thus, predestination does not apply. I’m not saying God decides whether we will choose Heaven or hell. I am saying that God decided that the choice was Heaven or hell. God could have made the choice Heaven or eternal sleep. Or Heaven or reincarnation, or Heaven or… (I could go on, but my point is made, if I can come up with other ideas, surely God could also, and he obviously rejected them in favor of the current system).

PumpkinSeed:

God said that you will not feel pain or sadness from those in hell because he will seperate us from the sin, and hell is sin. They chose to put themselves there. They had a great gift offered to them. And on top of that, it was free. They chose not to take it. Also, God said that we will not remember the sin, which means we will not think about those in hell. They will be separated from us, and we will be okay with that because we will not have any sorrow in heaven. I’m trying to remember the exact verses but I can’t. If I find them I will re-post here.

Please do, I would love to read them.

 

[latingirl]

The difference is that we deserve to go to hell because every person, no matter how good they seem has gravely offended God. We don’'t just deserve something like a cross look. God in his justice must punish people who choose to reject the truth and who choose not to repent after horrible offending him- as we all have.

I hope this makes some sense.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

No, he’s not talking about predestination. He’s saying that God created hell (or allows it to remain as it is), and that God created the rules for who goes there and who doesn’t. Given these facts, you can’t turn around and absolve God of his responsibility for people winding up there.

God is not responsible for people going to Hell - they themselves are. In rejecting God and his rules, as far as you understand them, you are condemning yourself to Hell.

“Well his rules are too harsh!” you might say… and quite frankly, the number of mortal sins available to condemn with (according to the Catholic Church, certainly, as well as many other denominations, etc.) is verily mindboggling… but if God made the complete everything of all things, his rules are just the nature of reality, and those condemnations the metaphorical confirmation of what are simply the inevitable result of our own actions. We are warned against these things ad nauseam, so really, why blame God? He’s told us what and why, yet we still persist

 

[Mijoy2]

There is a 4th option. I do not know if it is fully in line with catholic teaching on hell and it certainly seems like a different hell then the children at Fatima witnessed. But anyway, you asked for a 4th option.

Read The Great Divorce by C.S.Lewis. It is a story of individuals in hell who take a bus ride to heaven. Ultimatley, they all elect to return to hell.

Sorry, you have to read the book to get (as Paul Harvey would say) “The rest of the story”.

 

[ricmat]

Lastly, ponder on this quote by M. Voris:

“God does not throw anyone into hell. The soul casts itself into hell because it cannot stand to be in the Divine Presence; it is painful to it. Hell is actually God’s mercy. He has given the soul a place where it can be away from Him, because to be in His presence would be more torturous than to be in hell.”

Well said. At the time of death, our souls rush to where they find their security, their master, their “mammon.” [note: mammon refers not just to money but to anything other than God to which we are enslaved]. Those that insist to the very end that they don’t need God, don’t want God, get what they want - they rush to Hell and lock the door from the inside. To keep God out.

There is a 4th option. I do not know if it is fully in line with catholic teaching on hell and it certainly seems like a different hell then the children at Fatima witnessed. But anyway, you asked for a 4th option.

Read The Great Divorce by C.S.Lewis. It is a story of individuals in hell who take a bus ride to heaven. Ultimatley, they all elect to return to hell.

Sorry, you have to read the book to get (as Paul Harvey would say) “The rest of the story”.

I also strongly recommend “The Great Divorce.” It is a short, very readable book, inexpensive, and not so much theology as a modern (circa 1930) parable.

It should also be remembered that Hell is what we all deserve. Heaven is offered to us out of God’s mercy, but we must be willing to accept his mercy.

 

[ASimon]

God is not responsible for people going to Hell - they themselves are. In rejecting God and his rules, as far as you understand them, you are condemning yourself to Hell.

“Well his rules are too harsh!” you might say… and quite frankly, the number of mortal sins available to condemn with (according to the Catholic Church, certainly, as well as many other denominations, etc.) is verily mindboggling… but if God made the complete everything of all things, his rules are just the nature of reality, and those condemnations the metaphorical confirmation of what are simply the inevitable result of our own actions. We are warned against these things ad nauseam, so really, why blame God? He’s told us what and why, yet we still persist

By your own logic, if a mugger points a gun at you and threatens to shoot if you don’t give him your wallet, and you refuse to give up your wallet, and he shoots you, then it’s your fault for not giving the mugger your wallet. You knew exactly what the threat was. You knew what you had to do to avoid it. And you refused. So, in a way, you basically shot yourself, right?

This is basic logic. You can’t posit an all-powerful God, make him the reason that hell exists, make him the source of all morality, along the rules that must be followed for one to avoid going to hell, then act like he has no responsibility for anyone winding up there. It’s not like God can’t do anything about this system - it’s just that he doesn’t. To say otherwise is nothing but special pleading.

This business about “God doesn’t send people to hell, they send themselves there” is simply the go-to line for folks too queasy to want to praise a being for sending their friends and loved ones into the everlasting fire.