Help me with Hell

[LJH_80]

Well said. At the time of death, our souls rush to where they find their security, their master, their “mammon.” [note: mammon refers not just to money but to anything other than God to which we are enslaved]. Those that insist to the very end that they don’t need God, don’t want God, get what they want - they rush to Hell and lock the door from the inside. To keep God out.

mijoy2:

Read The Great Divorce by C.S.Lewis. It is a story of individuals in hell who take a bus ride to heaven. Ultimatley, they all elect to return to hell.

I also strongly recommend “The Great Divorce.” It is a short, very readable book, inexpensive, and not so much theology as a modern (circa 1930) parable.

I checked out the summaries, and will likely read it. But for now I find it interesting that you both cite this. You’re right, this is a great 4th option, there are only 2 problems.
1.) It’s not an eternal hell of unimaginable torment. This shows that even C.S. Lewis cannot buy into an eternal hell being a justifiable concept. So the question is, do you believe that Hell is like C.S. Lewis described it, or like the Bible described it?

2.) The unhappiness that people experience in hell is the same type of unhappiness they experience in their daily lives. And again, that’s great, but when it comes to the happy non-Christian, that person must either be made unhappy or allowed into Heaven.

Again, I don’t have a moral issue with saying “If you want to be happy, come over here, if you want to be petty and lame, go over there, but you can come over here when you decide you want to be awesome again.” Which is basically what C.S. Lewis wrote, but that seems to contradict my Biblical understanding of Hell. If you have scriptures to support Lewis, I would love to read them.

It should also be remembered that Hell is what we all deserve. Heaven is offered to us out of God’s mercy, but we must be willing to accept his mercy.

So this would be along the lines of explanation #3. The only people allowed into Heaven are the ones who would not be concerned by watching other people burning in abject agony forever?

 

[mwok]

By your own logic, if a mugger points a gun at you and threatens to shoot if you don’t give him your wallet, and you refuse to give up your wallet, and he shoots you, then it’s your fault for not giving the mugger your wallet. You knew exactly what the threat was. You knew what you had to do to avoid it. And you refused. So, in a way, you basically shot yourself, right?

This is basic logic. You can’t posit an all-powerful God, make him the reason that hell exists, make him the source of all morality, along the rules that must be followed for one to avoid going to hell, then act like he has no responsibility for anyone winding up there. It’s not like God can’t do anything about this system - it’s just that he doesn’t. To say otherwise is nothing but special pleading.

This business about “God doesn’t send people to hell, they send themselves there” is simply the go-to line for folks too queasy to want to praise a being for sending their friends and loved ones into the everlasting fire.

Couldn’t the mugger be bluffing? Also, the mugger still has the choice to not shoot you even though you refused to give them your wallet.

You obviously don’t understand infinite anger/hate. That’s what Hell is, when we die we are locked in whatever state we were in at the moment of death because time and matter are irrelevant. So when all your earthly life God has been asking you to choose Him but you reject him out of anger/hate/spite you don’t “chill out” once you die, it is magnified by eternity. Just imagine apologizing to someone you really don’t like when you are really furious at them because their right and you’re wrong and you know it, and I think you might get the idea.

 

[mwok]

I don’t think you would be concerned of your friends in Hell, you would be too consumed with all that God is. Just like your friends wouldn’t be thinking of you because they would be too consumed by their self pity.

 

[LJH_80]

By your own logic, if a mugger points a gun at you and threatens to shoot if you don’t give him your wallet, and you refuse to give up your wallet, and he shoots you, then it’s your fault for not giving the mugger your wallet. You knew exactly what the threat was. You knew what you had to do to avoid it. And you refused. So, in a way, you basically shot yourself, right?

This is basic logic. You can’t posit an all-powerful God, make him the reason that hell exists, make him the source of all morality, along the rules that must be followed for one to avoid going to hell, then act like he has no responsibility for anyone winding up there. It’s not like God can’t do anything about this system - it’s just that he doesn’t. To say otherwise is nothing but special pleading.

This business about “God doesn’t send people to hell, they send themselves there” is simply the go-to line for folks too queasy to want to praise a being for sending their friends and loved ones into the everlasting fire.

We’re getting off on a tangent here. A tangent that has occurred on these boards in the past (using the search history).

I’m not trying to argue about whether or not people should go to Hell. My real question is: “How are people in Heaven in a constant state of joy while knowing that other people, potentially ones they cared greatly for, are suffering unspeakable eternal agony.”

So far the consensus seems to be that the concern for other people’s suffering is not a trait that exists in heaven. This seems to fall into two camps:

“True Christians know we all deserve to be in unspeakable eternal agony, so the people getting into Heaven have no problem with seeing others in perpetual torment.”

or

“When you get to Heaven, God will erase the knowledge of Hell from you as well as the memory of all your loved ones. Because there’s no way you could be happy knowing the truth.”
A corrolary to that is that you know, but God keeps you from caring about it anymore.

Then there’s the Great Divorce argument that hell isn’t really as bad or as eternal as it’s rumored to be. And while that’s great, I would love to see some scripture to support it. Right now, what I’ve got are things like:
John 3:36:

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him

Matthew 25:46:

And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mattew13:50:

and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I am not trying to contradict anyone’s view (except perhaps C.S. Lewis’ because I don’t think his argument is Biblical). I am not trying to disprove Hell. I am asking people how they feel Heaven works. And I’m asking because the explanations I have don’t satisfy me, but then I’ve only been at this theism thing for a few years, while others have devoted lifetimes of thought to it. I’m hoping they have better answers than I do.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

That is an internally consistent argument, essentially #2 on my list.
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Well if you’re looking for bibical reasons, then essentially you will go with my answer because thats what it says.

Its hard to know that some of the people you know are going to hell, but it is what it is I guess. I too feel disturbed knowing that some of the people I know wont be making it to heaven either, but I guess I just try to tell myself that I might not have a reason to send them to hell, but if God does then I should accept it as a fair judgement. He knows that person way more than I ever could anyways. Its his decision and I will put my trust in him.

 

[LJH_80]

Well if you’re looking for bibical reasons, then essentially you will go with my answer because thats what it says.

Its hard to know that some of the people you know are going to hell, but it is what it is I guess. I too feel disturbed knowing that some of the people I know wont be making it to heaven either, but I guess I just try to tell myself that I might not have a reason to send them to hell, but if God does then I should accept it as a fair judgement. He knows that person way more than I ever could anyways. Its his decision and I will put my trust in him.

While I don’t doubt that your answer is the most Biblical, I would like to see any scriptures relating to it that you can offer, specifically about your statement that “we will not remember the sin, which means we will not think about those in hell. They will be separated from us, and we will be okay with that because we will not have any sorrow in heaven.”

I know verses like
Revelations 21:4:

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away

But I’m looking for anything specifically relating the disposition of those in Heaven towards those in hell.

 

[ASimon]

Couldn’t the mugger be bluffing? Also, the mugger still has the choice to not shoot you even though you refused to give them your wallet.

Of course he has that choice. That’s why we rightly blame the mugger for shooting you, even though he warned you that he would do it if you didn’t produce your wallet. His ultimatum doesn’t cancel out his ultimate responsibility. That’s only common sense.

The question is, why not apply the same logic to God? Again, he’s ultimately responsible for the system, and the rules of the system, and he’s all powerful. Why doesn’t God have the choice to make exceptions?

You obviously don’t understand infinite anger/hate. That’s what Hell is, when we die we are locked in whatever state we were in at the moment of death because time and matter are irrelevant. So when all your earthly life God has been asking you to choose Him but you reject him out of anger/hate/spite you don’t “chill out” once you die, it is magnified by eternity. Just imagine apologizing to someone you really don’t like when you are really furious at them because their right and you’re wrong and you know it, and I think you might get the idea.

This is all very interesting, but ultimately irrelevant. The recurring theme I’m getting throughout this thread, is that the first thing to happen when you get to Heaven or Hell is you have the ability to think for yourself taken away. So it’s not really that you don’t feel bad for your loved ones who are stuck in Hell, it’s that you can’t. Because Heaven is paradise, and by definition, there’s no unhappiness in paradise. Swell.

 

[Serious]

The mugger analogy is great, but it is not accurate enough. We never meet the mugger. Only some people keep asserting that there is a mugger and he demands that you fork over your money. When you ask for actual evidence, they cannot provide it. When you finally meet the mugger, he simply shoots you - at that time when the mugger’s existence is finally proven, you don’t have the option to give in to the blackmail. And then all those people say: "hey it was your fault! You chose to be shot… ".

 

[ASimon]

The mugger analogy is great, but it is not accurate enough. We never meet the mugger. Only some people keep asserting that there is a mugger and he demands that you fork over your money. When you ask for actual evidence, they cannot provide it. When you finally meet the mugger, he simply shoots you - at that time when the mugger’s existence is finally proven, you don’t have the option to give in to the blackmail. And then all those people say: "hey it was your fault! You chose to be shot… ".

True enough. Though I think it works because, for the Believer, the existence of God, God’s morality, and Hell are as plain and real as the mugger I’m introducing for the sake of the argument. As far as the believer is concerned, they know that God, Hell, and the circumstances that put you there are real - they live their lives on those assumptions. The point is to illustrate the special pleading that’s going on - but it doesn’t work if they don’t concede their half of the argument in the first place.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

While I don’t doubt that your answer is the most Biblical, I would like to see any scriptures relating to it that you can offer, specifically about your statement that “we will not remember the sin, which means we will not think about those in hell. They will be separated from us, and we will be okay with that because we will not have any sorrow in heaven.”

I know verses like

But I’m looking for anything specifically relating the disposition of those in Heaven towards those in hell.

i know i read it but I forgot where it was. Ill go looking right now. itll take awhile but ill get back to you.

 

[Robertanthony]

Well first of all let’s get this straight… **God doesn’t send people to hell. **That’s our choice to make.

Now, think of this. In the marriage vows,the couple agrees to the words “Until death do us part.” This means that one can remarry if their spouse dies. What does that have to do with this thread? It basically means that the spouse that dies has no more feelings or emotions; only eternal joy, which God has granted them. This allows the other spouse on earth to marry without committing a sin.

All of this is the same with friendship also. Just change a few words and meanings and it’s the same thing.

God Bless

A lie repeated ad nauseam does not a truth become (no offense meant to you, Bballer). More than one verse contradicts that idea, here’s one: “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt 25:41 It makes God appear somehow a less terrible judge (meaning “fear-inspiring”) when people portray him as someone who passively watches someone go to their own chastisement. I also don’t buy that the damned could not bear being with God, it’s the other way around, God can’t be in the presence of wickedness, impurity, malevolence etc.

The traditional idea is that the elect in Heaven won’t lose an ounce of their felicity over the torment endured by people they once loved because they will recognize that God’s judgment is just, that his justice needs satisfaction and that they (damned) had ample graces and opportunities up to the very bitter end to turn to God in repentance.

I find Hell a harsh reality to grasp, I myself fear “going” there or the people I care about, but ultimately even if I debate all day, find worthwhile arguments, it won’t change its reality in the slightest. I have a whole host of reasons why it shouldn’t exist, I’d much rather the doctrine of annihilation be true, but I don’t get to make the rules, God does.

 

[ricmat]

ricmat;9101197:

Well said. At the time of death, our souls rush to where they find their security, their master, their “mammon.” [note: mammon refers not just to money but to anything other than God to which we are enslaved]. Those that insist to the very end that they don’t need God, don’t want God, get what they want - they rush to Hell and lock the door from the inside. To keep God out.

I checked out the summaries, and will likely read it. But for now I find it interesting that you both cite this. You’re right, this is a great 4th option, there are only 2 problems.
1.) It’s not an eternal hell of unimaginable torment. This shows that even C.S. Lewis cannot buy into an eternal hell being a justifiable concept. So the question is, do you believe that Hell is like C.S. Lewis described it, or like the Bible described it?

I think you should read the book first. As I recall, those that choose Hell are satisfied with their choices, and see no need to change. So in essence, the choice is “eternal”.

And the unimaginable torment is the absence of God. It would be unimaginable for someone in Heaven to have an absent God. But if you’re in Hell by choice, I guess that it’s not actually torment.

2.) The unhappiness that people experience in hell is the same type of unhappiness they experience in their daily lives. And again, that’s great, but when it comes to the happy non-Christian, that person must either be made unhappy or allowed into Heaven.

Again, I don’t have a moral issue with saying “If you want to be happy, come over here, if you want to be petty and lame, go over there, but you can come over here when you decide you want to be awesome again.” Which is basically what C.S. Lewis wrote, but that seems to contradict my Biblical understanding of Hell. If you have scriptures to support Lewis, I would love to read them.

So this would be along the lines of explanation #3. The only people allowed into Heaven are the ones who would not be concerned by watching other people burning in abject agony forever?

I think it would be better phrased as people in Heaven experiencing joy, happiness, and love beyond anything we can currently comprehend (on Earth). And they see those in Hell getting exactly what they wanted right up to the very end. Unfortunately, what they wanted right up to the very end was not God - the source of this infinite joy, happiness, and love. So they got something much, much less. Certainly “torment” from the heavenly perspective.

 

[Bballer32]

Robertanthony;9102826 A lie repeated ad nauseam does not a truth become (no offense meant to you, Bballer). More than one verse contradicts that idea, here’s one: “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt 25:41 It makes God appear somehow a less terrible judge (meaning “fear-inspiring”) when people portray him as someone who passively watches someone go to their own chastisement. I also don’t buy that the damned could not bear being with God, it’s the other way around, God can’t be in the presence of wickedness, impurity, malevolence etc.

I see your point… But God sent them to Hell after they rejected Him. Not because he wanted to send them there. God would love to have everyone in heaven no matter what, but He gave us free will and He will never contradict that. By this means, it is officially our choice.

I find Hell a harsh reality to grasp, I myself fear “going” there or the people I care about, but ultimately even if I debate all day, find worthwhile arguments, it won’t change its reality in the slightest. I have a whole host of reasons why it shouldn’t exist, I’d much rather the doctrine of annihilation be true, but I don’t get to make the rules, God does.

Hell is as real as heaven.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

So far ive skimmed through revelations, matthew and mark, and still not found the verse yet.

I know I read it somewhere in there though. I will keep searching.

 

[Micorhizea]

…This leads me to three possible conclusions:
1.) Heaven is not perfect bliss, in fact it is terrible knowing how many people are suffering.
2.) God will “fix” me so I no longer care about other people.
3.) People who have issues with other people’s suffering don’t get into Heaven.

If there is a 4th option please let me know. (Please do NOT post “well, I dunno, but I imagine God has a plan.” While it may be true, that doesn’t actually get us anywhere).

1. The kind of understanding of Heaven and Hell that would lead you to those three assumptions is not founded in reality. Therefore none of those situations is capable of existence when Heaven is properly understood by experience. In other words, diligently engage the life of a contemplative even if you are in a fire zone and find out for yourself. You won’t find any intellectual assertion as a satisfying answer.

 

[LJH_80]

I see your point… But God sent them to Hell after they rejected Him. Not because he wanted to send them there. God would love to have everyone in heaven no matter what, but He gave us free will and He will never contradict that. By this means, it is officially our choice.

Bballer, you are passionately arguing the wrong point.

Most of us are willing to agree that the individual human chooses whether to go to Heaven or hell. The question then remains, if an individual has chosen hell, why does God make hell as bad as it is?

Yes, we choose to go through the door marked “hell,” but God chooses what’s on the other side of that door.

PumpkinSeed, Micorhizea, ricmat, and others:
Thank you for answering the question that I have asked.
This is an issue that will need to into the “take it on faith” basket. While I hear what you are saying, my terrestrial mind cannot make logical sense out of it.
Thank you again for the honest and charitable answers.

 

[davidv]

Bballer, you are passionately arguing the wrong point.

Most of us are willing to agree that the individual human chooses whether to go to Heaven or hell. The question then remains, if an individual has chosen hell, why does God make hell as bad as it is?

Yes, we choose to go through the door marked “hell,” but God chooses what’s on the other side of that door.

PumpkinSeed, Micorhizea, ricmat, and others:
Thank you for answering the question that I have asked.
This is an issue that will need to into the “take it on faith” basket. While I hear what you are saying, my terrestrial mind cannot make logical sense out of it.
Thank you again for the honest and charitable answers.

How bad is hell, as you indicated above? And why do you say God made it that way?
I believe that the badness of hell is human made, not God made.

 

[LJH_80]

How bad is hell, as you indicated above? And why do you say God made it that way?
I believe that the badness of hell is human made, not God made.

Umm… “Really Bad?”
I believe it’s exactly as bad as the Bible says it is. Find me anything about hell in the Bible that say’s it’s less than really bad and I’ll believe it’s less than “really bad.” I mean there is that once verse in John where he describes hell as “slightly unpleasant, there’s a bit of an odor to it, but there’s a great burrito stand on 4th street. The skiing is awesome, but the lines are rather long.”

And as for who makes it horrible, I fail to see how that’s relevant. I don’t wish eternal agony on anyone, no matter what they’ve done. Souls head toward eternal suffering, and God has the power to do something about it (if He didn’t, he wouldn’t be omnipotent), and He chooses not to. Ergo, God chose for hell to be as bad as it is.

 

[someperson555]

So I take it you’re in the #3 camp?

People choose not to be Christians, this is true.
But people make a lot of dumb choices. So let’s say, instead, that you’re having a barbecue in your back yard, and your friend chooses to cover the coals with gasoline before lighting them. He lights the fire, it goes FWOOSH, and he is now on fire as a direct result of his choices. I don’t blame anyone but him for this, I don’t claim that the fire chose to burn him, but that doesn’t mean I’m happy about watching my friend burn.

Also, as for the line, “God doesn’t send people to hell” I would argue that God does choose that people go to hell.
God is all-powerful, yes?
Ergo, God COULD create another place for them to be, if He wanted to, yes?
We also know that God must be able to create a place that is not Heaven, but not eternal, unimaginable torment. We know that because we are currently in such a place.

By this logic, God has chosen that that the choices be Heaven or Hell.

WOW, I thought i was the only one who thought this way. i agree with you, as much as i want to imagine that God is merciful, i have always found these things to be perplexing. for example, how could someone merit infinite torture for a finite amount of actions? and how is it that you could be happy in heaven if your family/ friends are in hell? these are questions i asked myself too. and unfortunately i have not found an answer to them yet either. so i guess me posting this was kind of pointless lol. but i just wanted you to know that you are certainly not alone in thinking this.

 

[someperson555]

A lie repeated ad nauseam does not a truth become (no offense meant to you, Bballer). More than one verse contradicts that idea, here’s one: “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt 25:41 It makes God appear somehow a less terrible judge (meaning “fear-inspiring”) when people portray him as someone who passively watches someone go to their own chastisement. I also don’t buy that the damned could not bear being with God, it’s the other way around, God can’t be in the presence of wickedness, impurity, malevolence etc.

The traditional idea is that the elect in Heaven won’t lose an ounce of their felicity over the torment endured by people they once loved because they will recognize that God’s judgment is just, that his justice needs satisfaction and that they (damned) had ample graces and opportunities up to the very bitter end to turn to God in repentance.

I find Hell a harsh reality to grasp, I myself fear “going” there or the people I care about, but ultimately even if I debate all day, find worthwhile arguments, it won’t change its reality in the slightest. I have a whole host of reasons why it shouldn’t exist, I’d much rather the doctrine of annihilation be true, but I don’t get to make the rules, God does.

there are many problems with your point of view.

first of all, if you love someone, your love is not affected by their deeds. just because someone does evil doesnt mean a person will automatically stop loving him. perhaps thats just YOUR life’s philosophy. but i know its not really what you think, you just dont understand the enitirety of the situation. ask yourself this, if you were to find out that your mother or father or son or daughter was a bank robber, or a drug dealer, would you stop loving them? would your love turn off like the light turns off at the flip of a swicth?