Help me with Hell

[Simpleton]

I am having a problem with the concept of Hell.

Many of my good friends are non-Christians. If I get into Heaven, and they go into Hell, then this poses a problem to me.

Imagine a dear friend of yours is burning alive in extreme pain.
Now imagine yourself sitting back watching, saying “Wow, this really is paradise!”
I cannot imagine myself feeling blissful for eternity knowing that people I care about are suffering unimaginable torment for all eternity.

I know that in Heaven you don’t just sit and watch the people being tormented, but that doesn’t mean you don’t know that it’s happening.

This leads me to three possible conclusions:
1.) Heaven is not perfect bliss, in fact it is terrible knowing how many people are suffering.
2.) God will “fix” me so I no longer care about other people.
3.) People who have issues with other people’s suffering don’t get into Heaven.

If there is a 4th option please let me know. (Please do NOT post “well, I dunno, but I imagine God has a plan.” While it may be true, that doesn’t actually get us anywhere).

Do you feel sorry for Satan?

 

[slywakka250]

Do you feel sorry for Satan?

I’m sorry I have not read this whole thread.

But this question goes straight to my heart. Yes, I feel very sorry for Satan.

How else are we supposed to feel about him? Are we supposed to hate him, even though God made him?

Satan is a tragedy, the sorriest of creatures. Sure he “made his choice.” but what of that? While there is existence there is always hope, even for Satan, that i what I will believe.

 

[LJH_80]

Do you feel sorry for Satan?

Yes.

In my perspective, the inflicting of suffering is never a desirable end. It is sometimes a necessary means to a desirable end (I’ve grounded my daughter to improve a behavior, but I’ve never just caused her pain simply because I wanted to cause her unhappiness).

I wish there was a way to end his suffering and bring him back to God.

This is not to say that I am soft in my opposition to him. But that is stopping his acts, not wanting to hurt him. I am Army; I understand the concept of “I do not wish to hurt you, but I cannot let you continue doing what you’re doing, and I will kill you to stop you.”
I would never kill someone more painfully than I had to, nor will I ever (I pray) feel good about it. I will always wish that they had elected to stay home with their family instead of building roadside bombs, just like I will always wish that Satan would abandon his mission of corruption and repent.

 

[Serious]

All this shows how shallow and dishonest your arguments are - you do realise that, don’t you? If you have to lay dodgy traps to win your argument, do you not think it’s because, with clarity, you have no genuine argument at all?

Ah, so you blame me for exposing the contradictions and inconsistencies of me opponents. Nice trick, but it will not fly.

No, I think you’ve just managed the cheapest of all shots - I’ve got as much right to criticise your interpretation as you’ve got to make it and have it taken seriously… if you play that game in earnest, why would you have the pretense to expect your interpretation to have any relevance beyond yourself at all? Words make sense - well, generally

You are certainly welcome to give an honest criticism. But make no mistakes about it, a real criticism is NOT simply staing: “your interpretation is incorrect, because you took it out of context”. That is the cheap shot. If it were followed by an explanation, which would show what the actual context is, and how it proves that the “seemingly black object” is “actually white” - that would be an argument. But to say “you are wrong” (and many times it would be even misspelled into “your wrong”) is not an argument.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Yes.

In my perspective, the inflicting of suffering is never a desirable end. It is sometimes a necessary means to a desirable end (I’ve grounded my daughter to improve a behavior, but I’ve never just caused her pain simply because I wanted to cause her unhappiness).

I wish there was a way to end his suffering and bring him back to God.

This is not to say that I am soft in my opposition to him. But that is stopping his acts, not wanting to hurt him. I am Army; I understand the concept of “I do not wish to hurt you, but I cannot let you continue doing what you’re doing, and I will kill you to stop you.”
I would never kill someone more painfully than I had to, nor will I ever (I pray) feel good about it. I will always wish that they had elected to stay home with their family instead of building roadside bombs, just like I will always wish that Satan would abandon his mission of corruption and repent.

What people don’t realize is that they are promoting hell , by arguing for its justification.

For myself, I have no idea how people allow themselves such an aggression on their fellow man .

To be honest I think it is a test. A clever test by all that is known in true fair justice.
Those who need revenge by contrast allowing for self worth will fall short in self understood eternity…best example would be little critters barely conscious and so forth…vengeful people have no place in the eternity…the eternity is gods home…it could not ever be tainted with such a thing, eternity is holy…you cannot have an unholy domain in the eternal blessedness…it is not allowed in mind and heavily reproved with severe consequence to quantity of self understanding in the here after.

I certainly do not want to be in the company of one who promotes this Idi amin house of intentional horror, who in their right mind would ?

God, heaven would be all about unity, order…

The D would be all about dis-unity, dis order.

How could anything which is absent focus by description, disorder, disunity, remain in tact?

The only way in can remain as a reality, is in the imaginative minds who require this reality in there everyday lives…rest assured…it is needed.

The Church does not teach anyone is in hell, yet the church teaches lots of souls are in fact in heaven…the church also allows us to pray for the dead…so the dead may be in this dreaded place yet we can pray for them…

Fatima…Pray for the souls in hell, God wants to save them…it is a direct inference of the soldiers…the vision in the ground was at a different time in the apparitions. The wording allows , together with wording in scripture hell to be understood as a very disgruntled life of selfishness and so forth. on earth Church will in my opinion lift this non sense…either they will or Islam will who ever does will get the global respect…

Its a test to sort out quickly the compassionate from the…others

 

[LJH_80]

Further Suntime,
I am not entirely sure what you mean. I am going to try and rephrase what you are saying to see if what I am hearing is what you intended for me to hear, or if there is a communication breakdown.

You believe the concept of hell is a test for those still alive. That we the living are judged by our responses to the people in hell. The idea being: it’s easy to show compassion to your friends, but to show compassion to your enemies is very difficult, and those who can manage that deserve to be in paradise.

Is that an accurate rephrasing of your argument? If not, where did I go wrong?

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Further Suntime,
I am not entirely sure what you mean. I am going to try and rephrase what you are saying to see if what I am hearing is what you intended for me to hear, or if there is a communication breakdown.

You believe the concept of hell is a test for those still alive. That we the living are judged by our responses to the people in hell. The idea being: it’s easy to show compassion to your friends, but to show compassion to your enemies is very difficult, and those who can manage that deserve to be in paradise.

Is that an accurate rephrasing of your argument? If not, where did I go wrong?

Thank-you.

I am being overly one sided in this argument in order to emphasize the gravity of whats being considered in a brutal, un-imaginably unspeakable consequence which can do nothing but, offer a destructive purposeless slant to the great creator.

So my entry was hopefully like a wake up call to the intensity of such a thing not always fully appreciated in a common insensitive approach , which is in fact the essence of problem in humanity’s chief directive unity. ( insensitivity to others) Also, I believe there will be consequence for outright selfishness although our job, is not to assume a job which is ( politely)…frankly none of our business.

Speaking on behalf of God can only go so far. The destructive in a hell idea attaches a non innocence to God in sure attribute of God, hope, and the ordered good in conclusion logically to an ordered origin , that being God himself.

The teachings in Catholisism require individual translation. The idea then of hell cannot be anything but, an abstract thought. In order to fully stand behind an abstract thought one must be compelled in agreement or wish, otherwise the abstract thought cannot find psychological rest mentally in the human mind, unless, there is a confirmation in experience in known others to fit the shoes, requiring such a place. In other words a full translation of this belief interferes with the charity expected in hope for mankind at large.

So while the previous entry was passionate, the intention was not to judge but to wake up the general easy translation of hell.
We cannot , or are responsible to imagine how it will be floating around in paradise, it is not a responsibility or a concern, therefore the contemplation, consideration and all extending implications upholding this demise and “un-intended for each”, in my thinking is inappropriate by human station or place.together with focus for unity.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I will finish what is unfinished in my contribution later tonight. As a catholic I feel there is a very logical and satisfactory approach-translation to the important teaching of consequence.
I have responsibilities for now, and usually do for the week but I guess the weekend got all bumbled up with things.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

No doubt about it… there are many good decent people in the world… some totally selfish as well. Then humanity has the maniacs including the ones who wind up with some social power… Hitler, Stalin types.

Its ridiculous to expect good people to ignore the outcome in consequence to absolute selfish demented people. I don’t think there was too much quality character in Hitler for example.

In fact from what I understand these extreme types are very uncomfortable in one or two group settings and prefer the crowd. Less chance in person-evaluation would be my first consideration. Just a very easy imaginative weekend fishing with one of these types would show for a blank experience. Theres just very little value in sharing which is authentic with very selfish people…I think people are on to that, theres always an angle, no ones really there, no one home.

For myself the translation of consequence hell, in keeping with the religion is a proportionate self understanding quantity in afterlife, to true value in person-hood.The hellish experience in this insecure fear based existence had on earth.

Theres just no way, if man is easily above this idea on earth re justice, attaching in its full meaning to the creator is just not fair. Theres just no ethic in pick and choose. I don’t even think its a spiritual question, it can’t get past decency.

Value is recognized. Little value is usually recognized, in a little way.

well…I gotta go and busy trying to find a good place to move to, so won’t be around for a bit.

 

[Simpleton]

Yes.

I wish there was a way to end his suffering and bring him back to God.

From what I’m aware of, Satan doesn’t want to be loved by God and would gladly like it if you joined Him in Hell for all enternity. I guess I fail to see how someone could feel sorry for a being like that. The simple fact is Satan made his choice and is perfectly fine with it.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Simpleton…please.

Trying to “provoke” someone regardless of anything into believing the devil is a necessary participant in self involved understandings re hopeful flourish and spiritual development, is unwise. Provoking toward a negative is illogical.

The other important reason is that even if this provoking manner is not the path which led to your interest in such a thing for advance, you are making the suggestion to your mind that it is.

I have to go and log out now for at least 3 weeks and don’t believe I have anything more to add.

 

[Simpleton]

Simpleton…please.

Trying to “provoke” someone regardless of anything into believing the devil is a necessary instrument for flourish and spiritual development is unwise. Provoking toward a negative is illogical.

The other important reason is that even if this provoking manner is not the path which led to your interest in such a thing for advance, you are making the suggestion to your mind that it is.

I have to go and log out now for at least 3 weeks and don’t believe I have anything more to add.

I’m not following you. Have a nice three weeks.

 

[LJH_80]

From what I’m aware of, Satan doesn’t want to be loved by God and would gladly like it if you joined Him in Hell for all enternity. I guess I fail to see how someone could feel sorry for a being like that. The simple fact is Satan made his choice and is perfectly fine with it.

The best example I have for terrestrial evil came from a story my dad told me about when he volunteered in a home for juvenile delinquents. He met a young man who was there for killing a dog. When asked why, he said “someone killed my dog, so I went out and killed someone else’s dog.”

That is a human being that wants to inflict pain for no reason other than to inflict pain. He did not want help nor did he seek love; he was hurting and so he wanted to hurt others. He doesn’t realize that this will just make him hurt more and repeat the cycle. I still feel sorry for him.
I never met the man, nor am I a mental health professional. I don’t know if rehabilitation was possible for that person. What I do know is that, if it were possible, I would hope he’d get it. If it were not possible, he should be put down like a rabid dog. But even with a rabid dog, you don’t try to inflict any more than you have to to, right? Ergo, if Satan could be reformed, I’d hope he would be. If reform is impossible, then keeping him existing in a state of perpetual suffering is cruel.

There was a famous person about 2,000 years ago who talked about loving your enemy. Something like:

27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.

One of my favorite stories of Jesus is

9 Then He asked him, “What is your name?" And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10 Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country. 11 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. 12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, “Send us to the swine, that we may enter them.” 13 And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea.

One of my favorite passages about that is Emphasis mine.

These are demons who are tormenting a man. Jesus tells them that he will not allow this to continue (he doesn’t hesitate or back down on his demand). The demons ask to be dispatched in a certain way, and Jesus is happy to oblige. His goal is not to cause unnecessary harm, even to demons.

But I welcome your explanation for your perspective.

 

[Simpleton]

The best example I have for terrestrial evil came from a story my dad told me about when he volunteered in a home for juvenile delinquents. He met a young man who was there for killing a dog. When asked why, he said “someone killed my dog, so I went out and killed someone else’s dog.”

That is a human being that wants to inflict pain for no reason other than to inflict pain. He did not want help nor did he seek love; he was hurting and so he wanted to hurt others. He doesn’t realize that this will just make him hurt more and repeat the cycle. I still feel sorry for him.
I never met the man, nor am I a mental health professional. I don’t know if rehabilitation was possible for that person. What I do know is that, if it were possible, I would hope he’d get it. If it were not possible, he should be put down like a rabid dog. But even with a rabid dog, you don’t try to inflict any more than you have to to, right? Ergo, if Satan could be reformed, I’d hope he would be. If reform is impossible, then keeping him existing in a state of perpetual suffering is cruel.

There was a famous person about 2,000 years ago who talked about loving your enemy. Something like:

One of my favorite stories of Jesus is

One of my favorite passages about that is Emphasis mine.

These are demons who are tormenting a man. Jesus tells them that he will not allow this to continue (he doesn’t hesitate or back down on his demand). The demons ask to be dispatched in a certain way, and Jesus is happy to oblige. His goal is not to cause unnecessary harm, even to demons.

But I welcome your explanation for your perspective.

Maybe you could explain to me how me not feeling sorry for the devil is me not loving my enemy. Does it sadden me that there are souls like the devil? Yes, it does; however God’s just punishment for souls like Him does not sadden me.

As for Mark 5:9-13, I found this from the Haydock commentary:

I adjure thee by God. The same is, I earnestly beg of thee not to torment me, by sending me into hell, and confining me in the abyss, there to be more tormented than I am at present.

haydock1859.tripod.com/id52.html

When the evil spirits went into the swine what happened to them? The swine died and the spirits went back to hell. From what I can see Christ didn’t spare them their just punishment but rather:

Ver. 13. Jesus Christ permitted the devil to destroy these swine, that from their destruction, the men of that country might take the alarm, and be converted.

haydock1859.tripod.com/id52.html

When Christ told us to love our enemies and to pray for them; He is clearly talking about other humans who are trying us or persecuting us. I came to this conclusion since we are unable to pray for the devil since our prayers will not work to convert him. Maybe you can explain to me why I should pray for the devil and what that will do for him.

 

[LJH_80]

Maybe you could explain to me how me not feeling sorry for the devil is me not loving my enemy. Does it sadden me that there are souls like the devil?

Maybe a main point of our discussion is a difference in terms. I am not sure that you and I mean the same thing by “feel sorry for.” You say you do not feel sorry for them, but their predicament does sadden you (that such souls exist, not God’s response* to them).
Specifically, the concept of souls being in perpetual torment makes me unhappy that they are in perpetual torment.

*: “Punishment” has a very distinct meaning that does not apply to Hell. Damnation can be described as “God’s response to” sinners, or other terms, but because these discussions can depend on precision interpretation of terms, I want to be clear.

I came to this conclusion since we are unable to pray for the devil since our prayers will not work to convert him. Maybe you can explain to me why I should pray for the devil and what that will do for him.

I will gladly if you will tell me what it does for another human being.
Let us take the example of a hypothetical human, Julie. Julie does not believe in God, and is a sinner.

So now, if we pray for Julie, what are we praying to have happen that would not happen, had we not prayed?

If you can tell me what prayer will do for July, I will answer what prayer will do for Satan.

 

[Simpleton]

Maybe a main point of our discussion is a difference in terms. I am not sure that you and I mean the same thing by “feel sorry for.” You say you do not feel sorry for them, but their predicament does sadden you (that such souls exist, not God’s response* to them).
Specifically, the concept of souls being in perpetual torment makes me unhappy that they are in perpetual torment.

I’m not sad that the souls are in perpetual torment; I’m sad because there are actually souls that evil.

*: “Punishment” has a very distinct meaning that does not apply to Hell. Damnation can be described as “God’s response to” sinners, or other terms, but because these discussions can depend on precision interpretation of terms, I want to be clear.

We’re talking about Hell according to the Catholic Faith so I’m sure you get the just of what I mean by punishment.

I will gladly if you will tell me what it does for another human being.
Let us take the example of a hypothetical human, Julie. Julie does not believe in God, and is a sinner.

So now, if we pray for Julie, what are we praying to have happen that would not happen, had we not prayed?

If you can tell me what prayer will do for July, I will answer what prayer will do for Satan.

The prayers, and mortifications offered up for the conversion of sinners will help them do exactly that; convert. God will give them your graces that you are offering up for their conversion on top of the many He is already giving them to soften their hardened hearts.

Now can you tell me how my prayers are going to convert, Satan.

 

[wcknight]

Hell is for folks who have said to God, “I hate you and I never want to be in your presence ever again. And even though I have deliberately offended you, I will not repent or ask forgiveness ever again”

That is what a soul that has committed one or more mortal sins and refuses to repent says to God.

Accepting God’s forgiveness is a choice that everyone has an opportunity to make.

Ultimately we will all be judged on love, did we love God more than ourselves and other things, and did we love our neighbors. God does not send decent folks to Hell. IF your friends or loved ones were real jerks and wicked folks, then they will definitely have to have life changing attitude adjustments to make it to Heaven.

IF they have some minor flaws they may end up with some time in Purgatory. God is not the monster some folks make Him out to be. Remember Jesus describes the Father like Our real fathers only better.

It would take quite a lot for me to disown my kids, BUT if they were hateful and wicked and there was no possibility of them turning things around, I could see a point where I would have to let them suffer the consequences for their own actions.

 

[LJH_80]

I’m not sad that the souls are in perpetual torment; I’m sad because there are actually souls that evil.

Huh.
So how bad does someone have to be before you’ll cheerfully roast marshmallows on the flames of their burning flesh?

We’re talking about Hell according to the Catholic Faith so I’m sure you get the just of what I mean by punishment.

Yes, but “punishment,” as it is used in any other context, is corrective action designed to improve behavior. If the first time my dog peed on the rug, I shot him, that would not be punishment because there’s no behavioral improvement component. If hell is eternal, there is no future where the punished can perform better, having learned from their punishment.

The prayers, and mortifications offered up for the conversion of sinners will help them do exactly that; convert. God will give them your graces that you are offering up for their conversion on top of the many He is already giving them to soften their hardened hearts.

And this is what I find interesting. I’m pretty sure you won’t agree with the conclusion that I reach from this, so I’ll walk through my logic, and you can tell me where I have gone wrong.
1.) God gives Julie a certain amount of graces (“many” graces, to be precise).
2.) Julie still does not believe.
3.) God does not give Julie any more graces.
4.) Billy prays for Julie, handing God some of his own graces to give to Julie.
5.) God gives these graces to Julie, increasing her chances of conversion.
6.) Julie’s heart is still somewhat hard.
7.) God does not provide any more graces.
8.) Billy gets 4 friends to agree to pray for her also.
9.) 3 of those friends keep their promise and give God more graces, which He gives to July.
10.) The 4th guy gets hit by a car on his way home to pray, and by the time he wakes up, he’s forgotten… thus leaving July just short of the amount of graces she would have needed.
11.) God sees that Julie is just a little short of her required graces… and still does not give her anymore graces.

It’s steps 3, 7, and 11 that confuse me. Obviously there is no maximum amount of graces one person can have, or God wouldn’t be able to give Julie Billy’s graces on top of the ones he already gave her. Are graces in limited supply so that God requires donations from Billy and his friends? Or does God have graces to give, and just chooses not to give any more to her because… well, because her going to hell isn’t His problem?

Now can you tell me how my prayers are going to convert, Satan.

Yes, it will send graces that God can send to Satan in the hope of un-hardening his heart, and help him to love God again. You see, God gave Satan a certain number of graces at creation, but that wasn’t enough for him to love God, so he defied God and fell. God has refused to give him any more of His own graces, but if we offer some up for Satan, then God can send them to him, and maybe push him over his “grace quota.”

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Ah, so you blame me for exposing the contradictions and inconsistencies of me opponents. Nice trick, but it will not fly.

If anything, I blame you for practicising contradiction and inconsistency, by your own admission, to attempt to win on technicalities, rather than considering the issue directly and honestly…Hey! Maybe you just expressed yourself poorly whilst self-congratulating … Show me some examples of your conquering genius, otherwise, I’m just going on your own description

You are certainly welcome to give an honest criticism. But make no mistakes about it, a real criticism is NOT simply staing: “your interpretation is incorrect, because you took it out of context”. That is the cheap shot. If it were followed by an explanation, which would show what the actual context is, and how it proves that the “seemingly black object” is “actually white” - that would be an argument. But to say “you are wrong” (and many times it would be even misspelled into “your wrong”) is not an argument.

Er, OK… I’ve heard this all before though, and again, we could trawl through examples, but I’ve got sick of the old “read THIS bit!” “oh, but it’s all very different when you spend half an hour reading the whole 3 chapters around it” “oh yeah? Well read THIS bit!!” ah - I was alarmed, until I read the whole book over a day, then it all makes sense" “ah - but THIS bit doesn’t!!!” All usually from people you suspect are just trawling through a load of second hand out-of-context quotes, then repeating them verboten - in other words, scripture abuse is an amazing way for accusers to waste incredible amounts of apologists time, all at little cost to their own

 

[Subrosa]

I’m saying that God could (assuming He is omnipotent) create an alternative to Hell.
People choose whether or not to accept God’s offer. If they accept that offer, God allows them into Heaven. If they do not, they must go someplace. God could choose to simply put those souls to an eternal sleep, or to make a makeshift Earth for them to live out an existence much like the one we currently experience. Why did He make eternal torment the other option?

Purgatory…

Subrosa