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achaean
Guest
I agree with your mother. Most of the Catholic seminaries I have seen are wrought with the “gay culture”.
~achaean
~achaean
Help! My mother thinks the priesthood has always attracted homosexuals!
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burnside
Guest
Have you met many of the seminarians and seen them indulging in homosexual behaviour?
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IoA
Guest
Probably not, of course. I’ve known a few seminarians who might struggle with SSA, but they are genuinely striving towards celibate lives. It therefore follows suit that there is no “gay subculture” in these places.
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RomanRyan1088
Guest
Ok i might be wrong, but here it goes. 1st of all what is wrong with a gay in the seminary. I mean they still have to pledge a celibate (sp?) lifestyle so therefore i c nothing wrong. I mean, i know people who had gay eachers for crying out loud!
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St_Veronica
Guest
The Church teaches that homosexuality is ‘gravely disordered’. Those who are homosexuals are not supposed to enter the seminary (there are Church documents that say this also…I will try to track them down this evening after we get home).
Think about this, you are sending someone who has same sex attractions into a all male envrionment (seminary), the temptation for some would be difficult.
Yes priests do pledge to be celibate, however as we know from the scandal of the past couple years that doesn’t always happen.
SV
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RomanRyan1088
Guest
Well I agree with you that it would be a great temptation, but i mean are you saying that a gay cannot control his urges. If a man who happens to be gay loves God and his church with all his heart, even more than his urges, can’t he spread the good news? Wouldn’t it be a great temptation for a straight man who have a parish with young girls who dress in revealing clothing? I mean some make it sound like gays cannot be Catholic. Oh and also, some of the scandels involved young girls if i’m right, so therefore not all of the priests were gay.
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IoA
Guest
I wrote something about the whole issue a couple weeks ago. The root of the issue is in how people see themselves and their sexuality, I believe.
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StJeanneDArc
Guest
I want to thank everybody for responding, but I think we’ve diverged from my original question. I didn’t mean to open up a discussion about whether it’s right to let a homosexual man into a seminary (I for one would not want my son surrounded by a bunch of homosexuals, no matter how well-intentioned they may be).
My question is: has the priesthood always attracted a disproportionate number of homosexuals? I know in more recent history (i.e. since the sexual revolution) the abusers have been predominantly homosexual. I don’t see how anyone can deny that after looking at the statistics (over 80% of the victims were boys). My mother’s contention is that the priesthood has always been a safe haven for homosexuals (including and maybe especially those that were trying their best to be celibate). The contention is not that the priesthood is dominated by homosexuals, but that it is disproportionately homosexual (in much the same way that the occupations of interior decorating or hair dressing may be).
My gut tells me that this was not the case in the distant past. First of all, before homosexuality was smiled upon, as it is today, all-male institutions worked hard to prevent deviancy from being introduced into their midst. Secondly, why would someone who wanted to give into sinful behaviour take vows to be good?
Does anyone know of any hard numbers out there?
My question is: has the priesthood always attracted a disproportionate number of homosexuals? I know in more recent history (i.e. since the sexual revolution) the abusers have been predominantly homosexual. I don’t see how anyone can deny that after looking at the statistics (over 80% of the victims were boys). My mother’s contention is that the priesthood has always been a safe haven for homosexuals (including and maybe especially those that were trying their best to be celibate). The contention is not that the priesthood is dominated by homosexuals, but that it is disproportionately homosexual (in much the same way that the occupations of interior decorating or hair dressing may be).
My gut tells me that this was not the case in the distant past. First of all, before homosexuality was smiled upon, as it is today, all-male institutions worked hard to prevent deviancy from being introduced into their midst. Secondly, why would someone who wanted to give into sinful behaviour take vows to be good?
Does anyone know of any hard numbers out there?
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meep
Guest
If your mother’s assertion is that “back then” they were all closet so no one knew about them–then there’s no way we could know about them either. No way your mother could know about them. Why not ask her how she knows? The proportion of closet homosexuals in seminaries throughout history is simply not a measurable variable, so it’s conjecture to make assertions. We can only speculate. As for open homosexuals, those were certainly not what you’d find in seminaries prior to this last century!
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theodorro
Guest
The answer is NO, the priesthood never attracts the homosexuals, and never did. The priest, the aspirant to priesthood wants to serve God, and he wouldn’t do something that contradicts God.
In the last years in USA is a problem with the abuses, this is because those priests doesn’t pray enough to God and the devil doesn’t sleep, he atacks; a good priest and aspirant to priesthood( who feel the call to serve Jesus Christ) will pray to God, to Mary and he will be a good priest.
I want to be a priest, I feel the call, I pray, but my parents think the same thing: the priests are homosexuals. I told them that I am not homosexual, I want to serve God with all my hears/soul.
If your son wants to be a priest, don’t stop him: Jesus say “all those who were called and didn’t come, will never eat with Me”. Don’t condemn your boy to hell, because if he il called by God and you stop him, he will never be a happy man.
I friend of mine, he is priest, told me that he had a colleague and his parents didn’t want their son to be a priest, he enterd in a seminary and after two weeks, his pearents died in a fire (punishment of God ?! - all saied this) — and there are a lot of true stories about such situations.
Let him to serve God and people souls.
In the last years in USA is a problem with the abuses, this is because those priests doesn’t pray enough to God and the devil doesn’t sleep, he atacks; a good priest and aspirant to priesthood( who feel the call to serve Jesus Christ) will pray to God, to Mary and he will be a good priest.
I want to be a priest, I feel the call, I pray, but my parents think the same thing: the priests are homosexuals. I told them that I am not homosexual, I want to serve God with all my hears/soul.
If your son wants to be a priest, don’t stop him: Jesus say “all those who were called and didn’t come, will never eat with Me”. Don’t condemn your boy to hell, because if he il called by God and you stop him, he will never be a happy man.
I friend of mine, he is priest, told me that he had a colleague and his parents didn’t want their son to be a priest, he enterd in a seminary and after two weeks, his pearents died in a fire (punishment of God ?! - all saied this) — and there are a lot of true stories about such situations.
Let him to serve God and people souls.
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meep
Guest
ourladyswarriors.org/teach/ordersentry.htm
Just found a document from the 60’s banning ordination of homosexuals (see 30.4). I had no idea… anyone know anything about this (e.g., authentic? authoritative? ever implimented?).
Has a lot of good points about formation and vocations, too.
Just found a document from the 60’s banning ordination of homosexuals (see 30.4). I had no idea… anyone know anything about this (e.g., authentic? authoritative? ever implimented?).
Has a lot of good points about formation and vocations, too.
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Charlemagne
Guest
Two relatively new seminaries are St. John Vianney Theological Seminary in the Archdiocese of Denver (sjvdenver.org/) and St. Gregory the Great Seminary in the Diocese of Lincoln, NE (stgregoryseminary.edu/). St. John Vianney was founded in 1999 and St. Gregory in 2000. Archbishop Chaput (Denver) and Bishop Bruskewitz (Lincoln) are strongly orthodox Bishops. I don’t know if these Seminaries include a Minor Seminary. I believe to stifle a potential vocation out of fear is wrong. If your son is truly being called by God to serve Him as a Priest, he should pursue it. The Church will not change for the better until those who really believe take a stand. Imagine if the Apostles had quit after the Resurrection out of fear of the Romans.
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rfk
Guest
I am not surprised that your mother has these impressions at age 64.
She is right in the age group that had all the V2 upheaval, and many of the highly dissenting and overtly homosexual priests are in her age range.
That may help with having a certain amount of charity when dealing with her concerns and fears.
She is right in the age group that had all the V2 upheaval, and many of the highly dissenting and overtly homosexual priests are in her age range.
That may help with having a certain amount of charity when dealing with her concerns and fears.
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Ham1
Guest
There are some pretty reflective numbers contained in the John Jay report commissioned by the USCCB.
As others have mentioned the bulk of the abuse cases were homosexual in nature. Most of them involved priests and post-pubescent males. It would be reasonable to assume that the priests who perpetrated this abuse had some form of same-sex attraction. I think in some ways the abuse statistics can be somewhat indicative of the preponderance of homosexuality in the seminary. The statistics seem to indicate that problems in the seminaries began long before Vatican II.
Around 60% of the abuse from 1950-2002 was perpetrated by priests who were ordained between 1940-1969. 72% of the priests accused of abuse were born between 1920 and 1949.
The abuse number of abuse cases per year create an interesting bell curve. The curve begins around 1950, peaks in the late 70’s and decreases back to the same low levels around 1995.
Obviously, homosexuals were getting in to the seminaries and ordained in fairly substantial numbers.
Thank God now many seminaries have been “cleaned up” and are forming many fine young priests.
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StJeanneDArc
Guest
Thanks so much or pointing out the logical problems with addressing my question. My mother’s assertion is very emotional and I think it’s arising out of her own experience with priests of her generation and a reasonable and normal concern for my son and his development. I also want to thank everyone for taking the time to help me with this. My son is leaving next week for a summer program to discern whether he wants to attend this school. My husband and I have met the rector and we’re quite comfortable that he’ll be safe at this school. I’m really just trying to allay her fears. If my father were still alive it might help (although he always claimed that he was nearly expelled from Jesuit High School as a senior because he punched a priest who made a pass at him
, and that was waaay before Vatican II).
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Catholic_Eagle
Guest
PRAY FOR HER
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rfk
Guest
I do take some comfort in hoping that things have been cleaned up, and in the hope that most of the abuse was 70’s and early 80’s.
The only part that worries me is the fact that most abuse cases are reported anywhere from 10-15-20 years after the abuse occurred. The typical pattern to-date has been a young 15-16 year-old man experiences the abuse but is too ashamed to report it. He then reports the abuse somewhere between age 25 and 35.
So we may simply not yet know about the abuse that may have occurred since 1995. (And that underline for the word “may” is meant as a sign of respect.) But I have heard the seminaries have been substantially changed, and I sincerely hope this problem is behind us. Of course, then you hear a current story (i.e., happening now, not in 1984) about 40,000 pornographic items, including child pornography, found on seminary computers in Austria, and I wonder if it is still a question of a mixture of good and bad, faithful and heterodox, seminaries.
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Ham1
Guest
rfk,
Good point. Hopefully, the trend will continue downward. Although, the numbers decrease substantially every year after the late 70’s. So, that’s going back 25 years. Hopefully, we will not see those numbers go back up. Although we commonly look at the 70’s and 80’s as the worst times for seminaries, I think the deeper problems were before in the 40’s 50’s and 60s.
We should keep in mind that the 40,000 pornographic images is not really as outrageous as it sounds. Everytime a website or image is viewed on a computer that image is stored indefinitely as long as there is hard drive space. It is a well known fact that many men struggle with addictions to online porn. Some of these men will view hundreds, if not thousands of images per day. That means these 40,000 images could literally be caused by 1 troubled seminarian who had a habit of viewing indecent images everyday. It doesn’t mean that the seminary was cataloging pornographic images. For all we know, that seminary could be extremely orthodox and just have one or two troubled seminarians.
Good point. Hopefully, the trend will continue downward. Although, the numbers decrease substantially every year after the late 70’s. So, that’s going back 25 years. Hopefully, we will not see those numbers go back up. Although we commonly look at the 70’s and 80’s as the worst times for seminaries, I think the deeper problems were before in the 40’s 50’s and 60s.
We should keep in mind that the 40,000 pornographic images is not really as outrageous as it sounds. Everytime a website or image is viewed on a computer that image is stored indefinitely as long as there is hard drive space. It is a well known fact that many men struggle with addictions to online porn. Some of these men will view hundreds, if not thousands of images per day. That means these 40,000 images could literally be caused by 1 troubled seminarian who had a habit of viewing indecent images everyday. It doesn’t mean that the seminary was cataloging pornographic images. For all we know, that seminary could be extremely orthodox and just have one or two troubled seminarians.
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meep
Guest
Good point, Ham; the outrageous part is that it was at a seminary, not that there were 40,000 images. The media likes to use numbers that unrealistically sensationalize something. At the university I attend, there are students (sadly) who report downloading gigabytes of pornography at a time. How many images could that include?
That does not mean that it is not tragic and totally reprehensible that a seminarian may have been responsible for it. (Though you have to wonder how many people had access to the computer…)
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