O
occupant
Guest
i just need ideas or points to bring up:
Principle No. 1: God wants man to be free.
Gods way: In the beginning there was only one rule, “don’t eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” God intended man to be utterly and absolutely free but for this one simple rule. It didn’t work. By the time Jesus got here that one rule had expanded to become the books of the law. The purpose for all those rules, called The Law, was not because man needed it but to show us that we needed Jesus. “Well then why was the law given? It was given to show people how guilty they are. But this system of law was to last only until the coming of the child to whom God’s promise was made.” Gal 4:19 Jesus mission was to save us and by doing so, free us from all the rules and legalism of the Jewish religious system. When Jesus began his ministry he explained his mission by quoting Isaiah. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to proclaim Good News to the poor; He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners of war and recovery of sight to the blind: to send away free those whom tyranny has crushed, Luke 4:18 Here he is talking about freedom from the system of law and the tyranny of sin.
John 8:32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."When talking about our freedom in Christ, Paul says, “I am free to do all things; but not all things are wise. I am free to do all things; but I will not let myself come under the power of any.” 1 Corinthians 6:12 Freedom was a central issue of Jesus ministry and the early church. Jesus sums up all the requirement of the law, how? ‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself and thereby fulfill all the law. (my paraphrase)‘ Mark 12:29, Matt 22:37-40 & Luke 10:25-28 He brought us back to one simple rule.
Principle No. 2: Man wants to control and finds comfort in being controlled.
Man’s way: Man establishes grand religious systems. He sets up hierarchies of authority so few people (those in power) can control, direct, and lead many. 1 Samuel 8 tells how Israel was not content to live under Gods spiritual leadership but wanted a King to govern them. In verses 10 -18 Samuel warns the people that a King will rule with an iron hand and treat them like slaves. Still they chose this rather than the freedom God offers. Vs 19 says, “But the people refused to listen to Samuel’s warning. ‘Even so, we still want a king.’ They said. ‘We want to be like the nations around us. Our king will govern us and lead us into battle.’”
These systems strongly discourage, even forbid, questioning those in leadership. They are designed to limit individual freedom and encourage compliance with the system and obedience to the rules. Threats of punishment (excommunication and ultimately Hell) keep the rebellious in line and promises of reward (Heaven) encourage obedience.
Take a good look at any of the established old religions; what jumps out at you is that they all have a similar system of rules, traditions and rituals. Traditions are basically just old rules that have been passed down over the ages that tell followers how to behave and what to do. There are two main points here; one is that if you are not a member of the religion your doomed and two, if you don’t follow the teachings or rules of those in authority you will suffer. Christianity has softened these points a little but I think they, to a large degree, still match the view of most denominations. Catholicism has a bunch of rules as well. They use to eat fish on Friday, what about Baptism, Communion, Confession, Last rights, and Mass, I suspect the rules for all these rituals are detailed and specific and if not followed your standing with God is in question.
Principle No. 3: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine
2 Tim 3:14 – 17
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This speaks to your second point and is fundamental. If we can’t agree on an authoritative reference then we have no way of supporting or proving our points. What I think you are saying is that the Holy Catholic Church is your authoritative reference and that the Bible is secondary, only authoritative to the level that the church decrees; where I would say, Sola Scripture, the Bible stands on its own authority.
Practically, for the sake of our discussion I don’t think it matters since the fourth century church (and I suspect that church was very different from the catholic church of today) put their stamp of approval on the Bible. I am sure the church has no problem with agreeing with 2 Tim 3:14 – 17. The problem is only theoretical concerning to source of authority.
Principle No. 1: God wants man to be free.
Gods way: In the beginning there was only one rule, “don’t eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” God intended man to be utterly and absolutely free but for this one simple rule. It didn’t work. By the time Jesus got here that one rule had expanded to become the books of the law. The purpose for all those rules, called The Law, was not because man needed it but to show us that we needed Jesus. “Well then why was the law given? It was given to show people how guilty they are. But this system of law was to last only until the coming of the child to whom God’s promise was made.” Gal 4:19 Jesus mission was to save us and by doing so, free us from all the rules and legalism of the Jewish religious system. When Jesus began his ministry he explained his mission by quoting Isaiah. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to proclaim Good News to the poor; He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners of war and recovery of sight to the blind: to send away free those whom tyranny has crushed, Luke 4:18 Here he is talking about freedom from the system of law and the tyranny of sin.
John 8:32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."When talking about our freedom in Christ, Paul says, “I am free to do all things; but not all things are wise. I am free to do all things; but I will not let myself come under the power of any.” 1 Corinthians 6:12 Freedom was a central issue of Jesus ministry and the early church. Jesus sums up all the requirement of the law, how? ‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself and thereby fulfill all the law. (my paraphrase)‘ Mark 12:29, Matt 22:37-40 & Luke 10:25-28 He brought us back to one simple rule.
Principle No. 2: Man wants to control and finds comfort in being controlled.
Man’s way: Man establishes grand religious systems. He sets up hierarchies of authority so few people (those in power) can control, direct, and lead many. 1 Samuel 8 tells how Israel was not content to live under Gods spiritual leadership but wanted a King to govern them. In verses 10 -18 Samuel warns the people that a King will rule with an iron hand and treat them like slaves. Still they chose this rather than the freedom God offers. Vs 19 says, “But the people refused to listen to Samuel’s warning. ‘Even so, we still want a king.’ They said. ‘We want to be like the nations around us. Our king will govern us and lead us into battle.’”
These systems strongly discourage, even forbid, questioning those in leadership. They are designed to limit individual freedom and encourage compliance with the system and obedience to the rules. Threats of punishment (excommunication and ultimately Hell) keep the rebellious in line and promises of reward (Heaven) encourage obedience.
Take a good look at any of the established old religions; what jumps out at you is that they all have a similar system of rules, traditions and rituals. Traditions are basically just old rules that have been passed down over the ages that tell followers how to behave and what to do. There are two main points here; one is that if you are not a member of the religion your doomed and two, if you don’t follow the teachings or rules of those in authority you will suffer. Christianity has softened these points a little but I think they, to a large degree, still match the view of most denominations. Catholicism has a bunch of rules as well. They use to eat fish on Friday, what about Baptism, Communion, Confession, Last rights, and Mass, I suspect the rules for all these rituals are detailed and specific and if not followed your standing with God is in question.
Principle No. 3: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine
2 Tim 3:14 – 17
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This speaks to your second point and is fundamental. If we can’t agree on an authoritative reference then we have no way of supporting or proving our points. What I think you are saying is that the Holy Catholic Church is your authoritative reference and that the Bible is secondary, only authoritative to the level that the church decrees; where I would say, Sola Scripture, the Bible stands on its own authority.
Practically, for the sake of our discussion I don’t think it matters since the fourth century church (and I suspect that church was very different from the catholic church of today) put their stamp of approval on the Bible. I am sure the church has no problem with agreeing with 2 Tim 3:14 – 17. The problem is only theoretical concerning to source of authority.
