Help. Need topics of discussion for "God and Evil" college course

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Hi everyone. I am looking for some (name removed by moderator)ut from my Catholic brethren on this.

I am in my final semester before graduating with a philosophy degree from a secular college. The capstone course (Senior Seminar) for my degree focuses on the subject of “God and evil”.

Our first assigned reading is Genesis 2:16 - Genesis 4, and the entire Book of Job. I have been tasked by the professor to lead the discussion on Thursday and I need to come up with some topics of discussion for the class.

I’ve got a few ideas, but any suggestions from you guys would be very helpful.

So, what do you think are some good topics of discussion concerning “God and evil” from the book of Gen 2:16-Gen ch. 4, and the Book of Job?

Thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

Nigel
 
Here are a few ideas that I am beginning to develop considering Genesis…

Disobedience to the will of God and the consequences wrought by such.
Gen 2:16
The Lord God gave man this order. “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”

Enter the serpent - the “father of lies”, who encourages us to turn away from God and rely on our own understanding…
Gen 3:1
“You certainly will not die!” (if you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and bad)…

Which was a lie obviously since while they did not immediately die their days were now numbered, and they also died spiritually upon eating the forbidden fruit (wanting to be like gods).

The serpent also tells them that if they eat of it then they will “be like gods”. Though eating of the fruit and thereby losing their innocence they were now ashamed of themselves knowing that they were naked. They were also now suddenly hiding themselves from the Lord God (Gen 3:8) because of their disobedience and shame.

Then we also have now the first “blame game” in human history, with Adam pointing the finger at Eve for his own wrong-doing. Adam scapegoating
Gen 3:
The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me - she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.”
Adam was present with Eve when she took the forbidden fruit from the tree and ate it, and so he knew exactly what he was doing when he ate of it too. So while Eve might be seen as a bad influence Adam was fully accountable for his own actions.

We also see in Gen 3 Eve’s response concerning her encounter with the serpent and how he tries to trick us into disobeying God.
Gen 3:13
"The Lord God then asked the woman, “Why did you do such a thing?” The woman answered, “The serpent tricked me into it, so I ate it.”
Again though, more scapegoating? After all, God told them not to do it in the first place.

Disobedience… Consequences… Toil… Suffering… Death…
Gen 3:17
“Cursed be the ground because of you!
In toil shall you eat its yield
all the days of your life.
Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth you,
as you eat of the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat,
Until you return to the ground,
from which you were taken;
For you are dirt, and to dirt you shall return.”

Then we get into Cain and Abel. Not giving God our best. Jealously between brothers, and murder.

Continuing tonight following Mass…
 
Let’s take a look at Genesis 3: 16
To the woman he said:
I will intensify your toil in childbearing;
in pain* you shall bring forth children.
Yet your urge shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.
:bigyikes:

Say what!
Now wait a minute. How could God get man to rule over women?

Well of course he couldn’t.

God wasn’t decreeing a new law. He was predicting what would happen.
Even today we see in some countries that women are oppressed by men.

The meaning is that through sin Adam and Eve cut themselves off from God’s protection from evil. They were kicked out of Paradise, but that’s not what God wanted.
So men bring evil on themselves by going their own way instead of God’s way.
 
I think an important point to work into your discussion is that we have only limited perception of what God is “doing.” So to claim that God doesn’t care because he permits so much suffering (a common barb hurled by today’s atheists) is myopic.

After all, this was one of the main points of the book of Job! We humans see evil, and God certainly does not like evil, but what we miss is that God also sees an opportunity to bring good out of it. (Such a Catholic idea will probably blow the minds of your secular colleagues at the college.) But I think this notion can be grounded in sound philosophical principles.
 
Hi everyone. I am looking for some (name removed by moderator)ut from my Catholic brethren on this.

I am in my final semester before graduating with a philosophy degree from a secular college. The capstone course (Senior Seminar) for my degree focuses on the subject of “God and evil”.

Our first assigned reading is Genesis 2:16 - Genesis 4, and the entire Book of Job. I have been tasked by the professor to lead the discussion on Thursday and I need to come up with some topics of discussion for the class. The submission is demonstrated in

I’ve got a few ideas, but any suggestions from you guys would be very helpful.

So, what do you think are some good topics of discussion concerning “God and evil” from the book of Gen 2:16-Gen ch. 4, and the Book of Job?

Thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

Nigel
Genesis 2: 16 can be discussed in the light of the distinct relationship between God and the first human. God, the Creator, established humanity in His friendship which was obviously good. Yet, the only way a creature, such as man, could remain in friendship with God was to freely live in submission to his Creator. This “submission” is demonstrated in the command to refrain from eating the fruit of a specific tree. This command evokes the insurmountable limits that Adam had to respect with trust.

When Adam wanted to be like God but not in obedience to God, he shattered his relationship with God. Now Adam was left with a decomposing anatomy and a desire to be the god-in-charge when it came to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods and self-termination. All this is beyond the dictates of reason and thus morphed into evil.

The above is creatively adapted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-421. (note: I like to begin with the nature of man.)
 
Nigel…One topic (taken from Gen 2:16) could be…the pre-existence of evil…The knowledge of Good and Evil pre-exists all creation…like a dark sea.

Could God imagine all that is less than Himself…limitation. Is limitation evil? Apparently not because God made a limited world for Adam and Eve and called it “good”.

Therefore, what pre-existed creation but goes beyond mere orderly limitation? The “proud waves” of chaos and disorder and absurdity…acts that contradict order is the key to sin. For example, when Cain slew Abel there was no order to it. Abel was innocent.
 
Genesis 2: 16 can be discussed in the light of the distinct relationship between God and the first human. God, the Creator, established humanity in His friendship which was obviously good. Yet, the only way a creature, such as man, could remain in friendship with God was to freely live in submission to his Creator. This “submission” is demonstrated in the command to refrain from eating the fruit of a specific tree. This command evokes the insurmountable limits that Adam had to respect with trust.

When Adam wanted to be like God but not in obedience to God, he shattered his relationship with God. Now Adam was left with a decomposing anatomy and a desire to be the god-in-charge when it came to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods and self-termination. All this is beyond the dictates of reason and thus morphed into evil.

The above is creatively adapted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-421. (note: I like to begin with the nature of man.)
My evil computer made a mistake.:eek:
Sentence above should read: Now Adam was left with a decomposing anatomy and a desire to be the god-in-charge when it came to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods and self-determination.
All this is beyond the dictates of reason and thus morphed into evil.

Another thought since you are using Scripture. At an awkward moment, you could throw in Isaiah 55: 8-9.🙂
 
So much can be said about this topic, especially from these verses. Do you have a point that you would like to focus on? Whatever it is, I’m sure cold be easily made from these verses.
 
Good stuff everyone.
So much can be said about this topic, especially from these verses. Do you have a point that you would like to focus on? Whatever it is, I’m sure cold be easily made from these verses.
My professor didn’t really say. Just that every day someone will need to lead the class discussion on that week’s assigned readings, and that this one is mine (note - this is the only reading all semester that we will do from the Bible. She picked me for this because she knows that I am a devout Catholic)… So I am just going for it.

Since the focus of the class this semester is “God and evil”, and considering the reading she assigned, then I am focusing on the relationship between God, Lucifer/Satan, and humankind.

You can see from my second post that for the class discussion I am looking at the relationship between the serpent and humans in Genesis, and his influence on us.

For Job then I think turning the focus of the discussion towards the relationship between the Lord God and Lucifer/Satan would be interesting. And of course Job’s steadfastness in faithfulness to God, even in the midst of great troubles.
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Pugsly:
Nigel…One topic (taken from Gen 2:16) could be…the pre-existence of evil…The knowledge of Good and Evil pre-exists all creation…like a dark sea.
This is interesting. And I have a question. The serpent in Genesis pre-dates the fall of Lucifer/Satan.
So who is the serpent in Genesis that is tempting Adam and Eve if at this point there was not yet a “Satan” since Lucifer had not yet fallen and become the father of lies??
I mean, in Job then Lucifer is still working for God, right? In the first chapter of Job he had not yet been cast out of Heaven for rebelling against God.
So who is the serpent in Genesis telling humans to rebel against God? Some sort of entity of that pre-existing evil which existed before all of creation? Commentary that I read says that it was Satan, though Lucifer had not yet fallen.
???
 
You can choose how temptation work on people:
the serpent said “you certainly will not die” (“right away”, in serpent’s mind), Eve imagined NEVER DIE
the serpent said “your eyes will be open and you will be like gods” , which means nothing they had the eyes open and already were like God, but Eve imagined MORE;
or you can choose how temptation didn’t work on Job
 

This is interesting. And I have a question. The serpent in Genesis pre-dates the fall of Lucifer/Satan.
So who is the serpent in Genesis that is tempting Adam and Eve if at this point there was not yet a “Satan” since Lucifer had not yet fallen and become the father of lies??

???
I think the serpent was doing Satan’s will. If you take literary what he told to Eve, it was misleading but literary corect. It was a lie because the intention was to mislead them.
 
Good stuff everyone.
Do you have the hard copy (not on line) Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition?

This is a link. And somewhere there is a link to this book’s Index of Citations.

For now read CCC 391 and following.
Also read the whole section on Original Sin CCC 396-409.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

From what I read on CAF, very few Catholics have a deep understanding of the Fall and its consequences.:o
 
Good stuff everyone.
Do you have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition?

If you do, check the Index of Citations page 689. On page 693 you will find the CCC references to Job. Evil in the “Glossary” will give you information as well as CCC paragraphs.

For the evil arising from Original Sin, check out CCC 355 - 421. If you are not interested in human nature or in God’s call to us, then head to the sections which interest you such as those on Adam’s sin. There is a section on the angels.

This is one of the links to the Catechism. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

One of the things I have noticed on CAF is that there is a lack of correct knowledge about Catholic teachings on the first three chapters of Genesis. You may end up listening to a variety of guesses. I wish you well in your endeavor.
 
This is interesting. And I have a question. The serpent in Genesis pre-dates the fall of Lucifer/Satan.
So who is the serpent in Genesis that is tempting Adam and Eve if at this point there was not yet a “Satan” since Lucifer had not yet fallen and become the father of lies??
I mean, in Job then Lucifer is still working for God, right? In the first chapter of Job he had not yet been cast out of Heaven for rebelling against God.
So who is the serpent in Genesis telling humans to rebel against God? Some sort of entity of that pre-existing evil which existed before all of creation? Commentary that I read says that it was Satan, though Lucifer had not yet fallen.
???
When God was at “rest” before creation, He had yet to pour out His great powers of Perfect Strength (Justice) and Restraint (Mercy)…both of which are Infinite Virtues of God.

At the moment of creation (when God allowed a sea of possibilities to begin playing out) there was a created being whom God refers to as the “Great Sea Serpent” that SEEMED like God’s equal for a short time (before God expanded into His powers).

Later, as God rose upward into unapproachable fires of Perfect Justice (and downward into the realm of flesh where Jesus showed forth Perfect Humility and Mercy and Obedience…etc)…the Angels of God drove out Satan/Lucifer/the Devil with their own increasing powers of Truth…with one angel shouting WHO IS LIKE GOD?

Michael the Archangel
Code:
The "accuser of our brethren" who day and night accused them (Job) before God...is the Devil prior to being cast out by the angels.....who cast them out with Truth and the Blood of the Lamb.
If time is linear, then Job lived before Jesus died on the cross…and the Satan was cast out after the Cross of Christ.
 
When God was at “rest” before creation, He had yet to pour out His great powers of Perfect Strength (Justice) and Restraint (Mercy)…both of which are Infinite Virtues of God.

At the moment of creation (when God allowed a sea of possibilities to begin playing out) there was a created being whom God refers to as the “Great Sea Serpent” that SEEMED like God’s equal for a short time (before God expanded into His powers).

Later, as God rose upward into unapproachable fires of Perfect Justice (and downward into the realm of flesh where Jesus showed forth Perfect Humility and Mercy and Obedience…etc)…the Angels of God drove out Satan/Lucifer/the Devil with their own increasing powers of Truth…with one angel shouting WHO IS LIKE GOD?

Michael the Archangel

The “accuser of our brethren” who day and night accused them (Job) before God…is the Devil prior to being cast out by the angels…who cast them out with Truth and the Blood of the Lamb.
If time is linear, then Job lived before Jesus died on the cross…and the Satan was cast out after the Cross of Christ.
Regard the inappropriate comment “(before God expanded into His powers)”.

The true God does **not **expand into His powers.

Regarding the misleading comment "and the Satan was cast out after the Cross of Christ."

The true devils, regardless of their names, were originally created as naturally good. However, some angels radically and irrevocably rejected God and His reign. They were cast out of heaven immediately and** not **afterthe Crucifixion of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man.
 
Regard the inappropriate comment “(before God expanded into His powers)”.

The true God does not expand into His powers.

Perhaps "expanded"is not the most accurate expression…however…1) God told us He was at “rest”…then God acted. His actions “expanded” from His inaction.
2) what actions does He reveal…the Grand Act of Restraint (Mercy) which brought all things into being for starters. God moved toward the Humilation of Jesus, the Perfection of Mercy, Obedience, Love, Trust, Faith, Hope…etc. 3) Since God is perfect Virtue…and virtues are both extroverted (Justice and outward expressions of power) and recessive (Mercy and inward expressions of restraint)…AND…since God is Perfect ACT…it is simple deduction that God the Father is acting even as the Son is acting…with Justice rising “higher” as the Son of Mercy went “lower”–a mutual “expansion” if you will.

Regarding the misleading comment "and the Satan was cast out after the Cross of Christ."
Thank you for not calling me a liar…but rather a “misleader”…none of us are trying to lie or mislead here. It is my opinion that the story of Job reveals Satan in heaven accusing Job. Also, the angels rejoice when the devils are cast down because they “accused the brothers (us) day and night before God”.
Now…how can any devil accuse human beings…if they were as you suggest— “They were cast out of heaven immediately…”…?

Blessings in Christ
 
Since the focus of the class this semester is “God and evil”, and considering the reading she assigned, then I am focusing on the relationship between God, Lucifer/Satan, and humankind.

You can see from my second post that for the class discussion I am looking at the relationship between the serpent and humans in Genesis, and his influence on us.

For Job then I think turning the focus of the discussion towards the relationship between the Lord God and Lucifer/Satan would be interesting. And of course Job’s steadfastness in faithfulness to God, even in the midst of great troubles.
That sounds very good. Here are a few suggestions to help you to that end:
Obviously this has the potential to do much good for the souls of your audience. Therefore, I suggest couching each of your ideas in the framework of redemption.

I understand you may not agree with all of the theological implications in the following suggestions, but you may some of it helpful.

You may want to begin with the nature of Adam and Eve’s relationship with God before the incident at the tree. Sin was not yet present in the created order which means they were able to perfectly fulfill the purpose for which God had created them. They were able to enjoy perfect fellowship with God. In a word, we could describe it as a literal, ‘Heaven on earth.’

When discussing the incident at the tree, emphasize the significance of Adam and Eve’s sin and what theologians refer to as the ‘Fall’. This indicates their fall away from God and from righteousness. They were banished from the Garden! Because of their sin, human existence would never be the same.

Also explain the significance of Moses’ description of Eve’s experience when she was tempted: She saw it was pleasant to the eyes, good for food, and good to make one wise. Do this together with a reference to 1 John 2:16 where the apostle uses language which parallels Moses description of Eve’s experience. This would allow you demonstrate the universal effects of the fall on all mankind.

You could also point to Eve’s first child, Cain and that he inherited his parents fallen, sinful condition (this would lead naturally into chapter 4 especially verses 6-7) also quote Jesus (Matthew 15:19).

As far as the serpent, Revelation 20:2-3 would make a clear reference to his identity and his work as a deceiver. His cleverness is shown in his subtlety and ability to turn our attention from what’s important to the mundane and vain.

Then, immediately after the Fall, God restores (to some degree) the broken relationship between Him and them. You could emphasize that they are hiding from and avoiding their Creator, yet the offended, angry God comes to them in order to re-create (creating new creatures in Christ-2 Corinthians 5:17) God declares the Gospel for the first time to Adam and Eve, referring to the ‘seed of the woman’ which would ‘crush the head of the serpent’. And by this, God restores the broken relationship. Notice He gives them animal skins which strongly implies that animal sacrifices had been instituted (atonements for sin which pictured the Sacrifice to come.)

Then, from there you could move naturally to Job as a trophy of God’s redeeming work. Job pictures one who’s relationship to God was in the process of restoration through the Gospel. Satan is the antagonist (the accuser of the brethren). He accuses Job of obeying God because he is blessed by God. But God, who knows those who love Him, says ‘you’re wrong and I’ll prove it.’ In order to prove (try, test) Job’s faithfulness, God sets the parameters by which Satan would be allowed to afflict Job. The Puritans referred to Satan as ‘God’s ape on a chain.’
God was confident that Job would not fail the test because God had ‘begun a good work in him and would bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.’(Philippians 1:6) One verse that profoundly demonstrates Job’s faith in the coming Messiah and hope for his own completed redemption is chapter 19:25-26, “I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God.” Paradise restored!

I hope this helps you and let me know I can help further. May God bless your efforts at this choice opportunity, and who knows, maybe He’ll cause some of your colleagues to think more deeply about these things.
 
Now…how can any devil accuse human beings…if they were as you suggest— “They were cast out of heaven immediately…”…?
I’m not sure why you disagree that the devil was cast out of heaven early on. Would a creature content in heaven really be involved in “accusing” us humans?
 
I’m not sure why you disagree that the devil was cast out of heaven early on. Would a creature content in heaven really be involved in “accusing” us humans?
All I’m saying is that the casting out was a process.
 
Hi everyone. I am looking for some (name removed by moderator)ut from my Catholic brethren on this.

I am in my final semester before graduating with a philosophy degree from a secular college. The capstone course (Senior Seminar) for my degree focuses on the subject of “God and evil”.

Our first assigned reading is Genesis 2:16 - Genesis 4, and the entire Book of Job. I have been tasked by the professor to lead the discussion on Thursday and I need to come up with some topics of discussion for the class.

I’ve got a few ideas, but any suggestions from you guys would be very helpful.

So, what do you think are some good topics of discussion concerning “God and evil” from the book of Gen 2:16-Gen ch. 4, and the Book of Job?
This is for a philosophy class?

Looks like I got here too late, but a quick browse through this thread seemed to indicate that philosophical questions weren’t being asked.

Job might lead me to want to discuss the nature of God (Aquinas, Scotus, Augustine). Perhaps the relevant material on the question of God as ‘all-good’, too. Job does a nice take on the question of God’s omnipotence and omnibenevolence; that would be a good avenue for discussion.

The ‘fall of man’ narrative might make me consider discussing the nature of evil (again, Aquinas, Augustine; and maybe even Nietzsche for a modern ‘counterpoint’ to more traditional approaches to the question, especially his take in the ‘Genealogy of Morals’).

Sorry if this comes too late to help… 🤷 good luck!
 
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