Help needed: Charismatic stuff during Mass

[porthos11]

I’ve encountered many times prayer groups doing charismatic “praise and worship” before the Mass ends (e.g. after Holy Communion). I know this is prohibited somewhere, but can anyone direct me to a canon or a law that states clearly that we can’t insert non-liturgical stuff into the Mass?

So far, all I have is the GIRM’s provision that no one can “change” stuff. How about “add” stuff?

Help much appreciated.

 

[msproule]

Could you be more specific? I am not a Charismatic Catholic, so I do not know what “praise and worship” means in this context.

Paragraph 24 of the GIRM states:
…the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.
If the priest cannot add anything, it logically follows that nobody else can, either. But in paragraph 88 it is stated that:
When the distribution of Communion is finished, as circumstances suggest, the priest and faithful spend some time praying privately. If desired, a psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may also be sung by the entire congregation.

Maybe the “praise and worship” consists of a psalm or canticle.

As for myself, I prefer quiet, private, prayerful reflection.

 

[porthos11]

msproule:

Could you be more specific? I am not a Charismatic Catholic, so I do not know what “praise and worship” means in this context.

Hi MS,

Thanks for the answer. By “praise and worship” I mean the charismatic style. Usually fast songs, interspersed with the “speaking in tongues” stuff.

I find it okay during prayer meetings and other non-liturgical gatherings, but it irks me to see them inserting these things during the Mass.

I think your quotes hit it in the head though. Thanks for the assist.

 

[Mysty101]

Charismatic “stuff”???

This is not very respectful of the charisteristics of an approved movement of the church.

Ratzinger also referred to his meeting with Renewal in the Spirit: "I have had the joy and the grace to see young Christians touched by the power of the Holy Spirit… At a time of exhaustion, when there was talk of ‘a winter of the Church,’ the Holy Spirit was creating a new spring.*** ***
ZENIT990617 (from Press Release - Pontifical Council for the Laity)

and

(reported in the Good News Magazine)

myweb.tiscali.co.uk/renewaluk/gn0301/g0301nws.htm

Cardinal Ratzinger Affirms Charismatic Renewal

In a recently published book called ‘God and the World’ in which journalist Peter Seewald, interviews Cardinal Ratzinger, the Cardinal, who is head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, talked about the Church’s need for ongoing renewal. He said, ‘She {the Church} does certainly need outbreaks of living spirituality. Forms of that kind, in which a new passion for faith emerges that is not politically contrived but has developed from within, have been important for the Church in every age. We have seen how in the 16th century the renewal did not come from institutional authority but through people who were gripped by God and created new movements. This is happening today in a great variety of forms -** the charismatic movement is one of them -** and this is, you might say, the consolation the Lord sends us by showing that the Holy Spirit is present and still powerful’.

If you think something is out of line, first ask the Priest, the Pastor, and if you get no satisfaction, write to the bishop. This is what you are instructed to do, and you do seem to want to do the “right” thing.

Remember the instructions do call for charity.Check out the GIRM & RS on the USCCB site.
usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml#10

RS 184. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity

.

There is much option given for music, and I have never heard any **official **objection to praise after Holy Communion. If you are so against this, it would be better if you attended a different Mass.

usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml

GIRM 87. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Communion chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song chosen in accordance with no. 86 above. This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.

If there is no singing, however, the Communion antiphon found in the Missal may be recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a lector. Otherwise the priest himself says it after he has received Communion and before he distributes Communion to the faithful.

1. When the distribution of Communion is finished, as circumstances suggest, the priest and faithful spend some time praying privately. If desired, a psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may also be sung by the entire congregation.

 

[netmilsmom]

porthos11:

I’ve encountered many times prayer groups doing charismatic “praise and worship” before the Mass ends (e.g. after Holy Communion). I know this is prohibited somewhere, but can anyone direct me to a canon or a law that states clearly that we can’t insert non-liturgical stuff into the Mass?

So far, all I have is the GIRM’s provision that no one can “change” stuff. How about “add” stuff?

Help much appreciated.

My heart goes out to you. I sat in your shoes. I pray that you find open minded people to listen to you. However, with all the proper channels, I hit a brick wall.
Have you considered changing parishes?
Sometimes talking with your feet is the only way.
The church is getting more conservative. B16 is looking for a leaner more devout church. I’m sure someone here can help you to find one more traditional in your area. In my area, the traditional churches are blooming and the charistmatic ones are clustering and closing.

 

[porthos11]

Mysty101:

Charismatic “stuff”???

This is not very respectful of the charisteristics of an approved movement of the church.

Hi Mysty,

Apologies. I myself am into the “stuff” I mentioned, but I also want to be obedient to liturgical law. Outside of liturgy, you’ll find my hands up in the air with the best of them.

If you think something is out of line, first ask the Priest, the Pastor, and if you get no satisfaction, write to the bishop. This is what you are instructed to do, and you do seem to want to do the “right” thing.

Remember the instructions do call for charity.Check out the GIRM & RS on the USCCB site.
usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml#10

.

There is much option given for music, and I have never heard any **official **objection to praise after Holy Communion. If you are so against this, it would be better if you attended a different Mass.

usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml

Thanks. My worry is that I can see that the priests “don’t mind”. I don’t want to be any more “against” anything than the Church, but it appears that the the charismatic choice of music doesn’t seem to jive with the intentions of Musicam Sacram. Plus the other, er, “features”, such as noisy tongues during Consecration.

All I want are the laws, and what I can cite permitting or prohibiting such practices.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

porthos11:

All I want are the laws, and what I can cite permitting or prohibiting such practices.

I have had the same questions. The real problem I have found when searching the GIRM the best I could was that nowhere in the GIRM is this stuff expressly forbidden. And the worst part about the GIRM is it goes with the ScanTron method on a few important parts of the Mass where each parish literally has 4 “options”, and usually option 4 says something like “if you dont like the first 3 options then another appropriate song may be used instead”. Thats where the real problem starts because some people take this to mean any song that mentions the name “Jesus” regardless of its speed, lyrics, tone, etc.

I went right up to the choirmaster at the end one day and gave them a piece of my mind about such disrespect in Church.

And I also agree with net(name removed by moderator) that taking “legal action” via letters to the preist and stuff usually results in getting stonewalled and getting the run around the bush.

 

[Mysty101]

Usually the Bishop is well aware of any complaints, and will tend to any serious abuse. And believe me, if there were more complaints than support, something would be done, even if there were not a serious abuse. I know our local Charismatic style Mass probably has one of the highest attendence totals in the area.

My advice would be to stay away from these charismatic style Masses, if you do not like the music.

I personally don’t like tongues during Mass, but sometimes it is very uplifting after Communion. During the consecration is another issue, but it is just a form of praise. I forget–is any sound other than the bells expressly forbidden? I know no words are allowed.