Help needed in debate

[NolePaul2005]

Actually…what was one debate has turned in to a few different debates…Here are a few challenges.

The first is someone who is Catholic…and he posts this…

“Again, quite clearly you DO NOT understand ceremonial magic that which IS THE CATHOLIC MASS. You make it sound as though it is BAD to have ceremonial magic. You get caught up in your definition alone of the word “magic” and lose sight of what it means, as if magic is a trick, lol. Were the miracles of healing by Christ Our Lord NOT MAGIC, they are the most powerful of all magic. Obviously you misunderstand the word then, no harm many do.”

The Second…this a response to my attempt to explain to this guy that transubstantiation is a miracle that cannot be comprehended by the human mind.

*"How do you know that?

Close up the mind and you’ll never learn how anything works. Miracles are simply things we don’t understand yet.

When you say what can or cannot be done, well, you are only speaking for yourself." *

The third is…

*Catholicism is not i repeat NOT the closest religion to the teachings of Christ. NO denomination has got it right. NONE. Reason why? RELIGION IS MAN MADE, not once in the bible is there a reference to RELIGION.

Religion was just made up to divide groups of people for the sake of feeling they were special. Jesus said that God has no respector of persons, therefore everyone is equal in the eyes of God, yet THE POPE is elevated over all other catholics. One pope even said, “Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me”

What in the world is that? No where did Jesus say, “praise and hail my mother who gave me birth” Why would you hail another sinner?

I’m not trying to bash Catholics, but the Catholic church has been involved in some bad stuff, Slave trading, among many others.

All Organized Religion is incorrect. If you follow what Jesus said, do as HE said and as HE DID. You’d be fine…The reason why people rather be religious than DO WHAT JESUS DID is because they would have to acknowledge that they are sinners like EVERYONE ELSE.

Jesus ran and favored common folk, aka poor people, He spoke Aramaic, a language which is considered mostly a slang or EBONICS of HIS TIME. Jesus preferred the company of people of less social status over those who THINK they are important because of money or influence.

It’s easier to be involved in a ceremony, go to church on sundays, sit there, zone out, clap a few times, and hug others who look and act like you, Rather than it is to accept all people as equals.

If ya just believe in Christ, understand His vision for his people and try your best to live accordingly, the rest falls into place.

Be Thankful, KY_NOLE is here to elighten you*

 

[Maranatha]

Here are my replies. I hope they help.

NolePaul2005:

Actually…what was one debate has turned in to a few different debates…Here are a few challenges.

The first is someone who is Catholic…and he posts this…

“Again, quite clearly you DO NOT understand ceremonial magic that which IS THE CATHOLIC MASS. You make it sound as though it is BAD to have ceremonial magic. You get caught up in your definition alone of the word “magic” and lose sight of what it means, as if magic is a trick, lol. Were the miracles of healing by Christ Our Lord NOT MAGIC, they are the most powerful of all magic. Obviously you misunderstand the word then, no harm many do.”

Magic is the will of man attempting to extend power over the natural and/or supernatural. Miracles are manifestations of the will of God.

The Second…this a response to my attempt to explain to this guy that transubstantiation is a miracle that cannot be comprehended by the human mind.

*"How do you know that? *

Close up the mind and you’ll never learn how anything works. Miracles are simply things we don’t understand yet.

*When you say what can or cannot be done, well, you are only speaking for yourself." *

If the infinite creator of the universe can become man why can’t he become bread. Does your friend think that God’s power is limited? If Jesus says, His body is food indeed and His blood is drink indeed, who should I believe, Jesus or your friend?

The third is…

Catholicism is not i repeat NOT the closest religion to the teachings of Christ. NO denomination has got it right. NONE. Reason why? RELIGION IS MAN MADE, not once in the bible is there a reference to RELIGION.

Religion was just made up to divide groups of people for the sake of feeling they were special. Jesus said that God has no respector of persons, therefore everyone is equal in the eyes of God, yet THE POPE is elevated over all other catholics. One pope even said, “Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me”

What in the world is that? No where did Jesus say, “praise and hail my mother who gave me birth” Why would you hail another sinner?

I’m not trying to bash Catholics, but the Catholic church has been involved in some bad stuff, Slave trading, among many others.

All Organized Religion is incorrect. If you follow what Jesus said, do as HE said and as HE DID. You’d be fine…The reason why people rather be religious than DO WHAT JESUS DID is because they would have to acknowledge that they are sinners like EVERYONE ELSE.

Jesus ran and favored common folk, aka poor people, He spoke Aramaic, a language which is considered mostly a slang or EBONICS of HIS TIME. Jesus preferred the company of people of less social status over those who THINK they are important because of money or influence.

It’s easier to be involved in a ceremony, go to church on sundays, sit there, zone out, clap a few times, and hug others who look and act like you, Rather than it is to accept all people as equals.

If ya just believe in Christ, understand His vision for his people and try your best to live accordingly, the rest falls into place.

Be Thankful, KY_NOLE is here to elighten you

How do we know which books are in the Bible? There are some recent news stories about the Gospel According to Judas. Does your friend believe this Gospel is part of the Bible? If not, why not? Organized religion, in the form of the Catholic Church was the authority that determined what books are in the Bible. That authority was explicitly given to the Church by Christ. If you throw out this authority, you need to also throw out the Bible.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

NolePaul2005:

Be Thankful, KY_NOLE is here to elighten you

This is the most telling thing in his post. Superpope KY_NOLE has spoken.

 

[NolePaul2005]

Here is a link to that thread…

floridastate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=&fid=1083&style=2&tid=71933004&Page=2

Here is KyNoles reply to me…

*The verse you mention tells about CHURCH, not RELIGION. Big Differnce. You can have Church anywhere. Scripture also says “where two or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am also”

Still show me where scripture speaks of religion in the Organized form. Church has many different meanings from the “building” sense that you are interpreting from the scripture, or the “church” meaning the bride of Christ who is the Bridegroom.

So go back in the Good Book and try again.

Be Thankful, KY_NOLE is here to elighten you*

 

[Anonymous_1]

I concur, most religions are man made which is what makes Catholocism so unique. Check out the almanac under religion. It will list all of the various denominations. Under Lutheranism, Martin Luther, under Calvinism, Calvin and so on. Under Catholicism, Jesus Christ.

This is a secular source. Jesus entrusted His teachings about the Kingdom to His disciples, and invested especially into those known as the Apostles, He had a unique relationship with these(as is documented in scripture). These are the leaders of the early Church0. If you lookat what these early Church leaders were teaching(int he writings of the Early Fathers) you owuld see that this is indeed the Catholic Church. Over the Centuries our Faith has grown and developed as is to be expected, it is an inexhaustible source of inspiration. But the Deposit of Faith has never changed. If Jesus Christ is truley who He said He was, then Catholocism is not man-made, but an institution and mystical body founded and formed by God Himself!

I’m not trying to bash Catholics, but the Catholic church has been involved in some bad stuff, Slave trading, among many others.

Jesus Christ through His Holy Church(His body) has revolutionized the world. Universities, Public Education, Healthcare, Social Services, Democracy, have all come to be through the Church. The Church as an institution has clothed more naked, fed more hungry, visited more imprisoned, cared for more sick and neglected than any other organization in the history of the world. Man, people have no idea what they are saying, its so sad. Not to mention the reconciliation and healing it has brought about through the preaching of the Gospel!

Mistakes have been made let us not be disillusioned, but isn’t that to be expected? People are often foolish, selfish and sinful. Would you stop going to school after you learned that it once taught that the earth was flat? Do you stop obeying and government and paying taxes knowing it once condoned slavery?

What in the world is that? No where did Jesus say, “praise and hail my mother who gave me birth” Why would you hail another sinner?

“Hail Mary, full of grace!”
Hmm, that was the Angel Gabriel who is far greater than us. Any way how often do we hold ceremonies for athletes and scholars and achievers and celebrities? If we can honor these people for their achievments which is certainly not wrong, if we can look to them for inspiration, why can we not look to Mary, the one who loved and served Jesus better than other human who has ever lived? Mary fed Jesus, changed His diapers, she served Him humbly and obediently, and is the exemplification of what it means to serve Christ. When you venerate and honor a beautiful masterpiece in any of the arts, whether it be the Cappela Sistine(the Sisteen Chapel) or the Mona Lisa, Beethavens fifth symphony or Shakespeares Hamlet, are you not ultimatley praising the Artist, the one who created it? Do you see where I am going?

He spoke Aramaic, a language which is considered mostly a slang or EBONICS of HIS TIME.

I am uncertain but I think this is just simply untrue.

Jesus said that God has no respector of persons, therefore everyone is equal in the eyes of God, yet THE POPE is elevated over all other catholics. One pope even said, “Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me”

I want a source. Show me where a Pope said this. Talk is cheap. Chellenge him on this, I do not believe any Pope would have ever said this. And if he did, certainly not int he context this person is implying. Check this persons references.

THE POPE is elevated over all other catholics

In a position of leadership not in a position of morality*.* He is still very responsible for any failulres, sins, etc. The President of the USA is Commander of Chief but still capable of Treason, He still has to pay taxes! The Pope is the vicar of Christ here on earth. We can see from scripture that Peter had a role as a leader int he early Church, the Holy Father is simply the succesor in a unbroken chain of succesors to Peter’s position.

If you follow what Jesus said, do as HE said and as HE DID. You’d be fine

I will try to get back to this.

The reason why people rather be religious than DO WHAT JESUS DID is because they would have to acknowledge that they are sinners like EVERYONE ELSE.

Explain that he is obviously misinformed in his udnerstanding of the Church. Tell Him about the Sacrament of reconciliation where we confess our sins, tell him about the penitential rites that help us prepare for every Mass!

Pray for him! Pray hard! I hope some of this helps. If i can be of any further assistance, PM me. I would be happy to talk to him if he wants to.

 

[NolePaul2005]

That guy is actually on a thread on another site I post (A college sports site of all places - off topic forum)…here is a link to that thread if you want to respond to him.

floridastate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=&fid=1083&style=2&tid=71933004&Page=2

 

[Anonymous_1]

NolePaul2005:

Here is a link to that thread…

floridastate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=&fid=1083&style=2&tid=71933004&Page=2

Here is KyNoles reply to me…

The verse you mention tells about CHURCH, not RELIGION. Big Differnce. You can have Church anywhere. Scripture also says “where two or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am also”

*Still show me where scripture speaks of religion in the Organized form. Church has many different meanings from the “building” sense that you are interpreting from the scripture, or the “church” meaning the bride of Christ who is the Bridegroom. *

So go back in the Good Book and try again.

Be Thankful, KY_NOLE is here to elighten you

Acts 1:21-26
Acts Chaper Six
Acts chapter 15, the Council of Jerusalem

I can give several examples. I would like to converse with this guy. WOuld you ask if he would be iterested?

 

[NolePaul2005]

Anonymous_1:

Acts 1:21-26
Acts Chaper Six
Acts chapter 15, the Council of Jerusalem

I can give several examples. I would like to converse with this guy. WOuld you ask if he would be iterested?

He is not a guy I know personally. He is someone Im debating on a forum. If you want to join in on the thread, go for it. I don’t have an e-mail address or an AIM address or anything for this guy.

 

[Anonymous_1]

if you would ask if he wants to discuss this topic further. If he wants to, tell him I would love to talk. My e-mail address is liqwidstyx@yahoo.com. If I can help, I will!

 

[NolePaul2005]

Here is another response from Kahn in that same thread…

"Just because it can’t be explained now doesn’t mean it can’t be explained sometime in the future. We didn’t understand electromagnetism till the late 1800’s. Not understanding before understanding didn’t mean we wouldn’t understand.

And about our feeble minds, I think God deserves more credit than that.

Science can be used to understand the nature of God, but not alone. And notice in my earlier post that I said having the mind that was in Christ Jesus is what is needed for total understanding. Miracles are not miracles. What Jesus did we can do. He said so himself."

 

[Reformed_Rob]

NolePaul2005:

Catholicism is not i repeat NOT the closest religion to the teachings of Christ. NO denomination has got it right. NONE. Reason why? RELIGION IS MAN MADE, not once in the bible is there a reference to RELIGION.

** All Organized Religion is incorrect. If you follow what Jesus said, do as HE said and as HE DID.** You’d be fine…The reason why people rather be religious than DO WHAT JESUS DID is because they would have to acknowledge that they are sinners like EVERYONE ELSE.

If ya just believe in Christ, understand His vision for his people and try your best to live accordingly, the rest falls into place.

Be Thankful, KY_NOLE is here to elighten you

Hmmmm, what Bible version does he read??? James 1:26, 27 may not be in it…?

However, perhaps you could find some helpful common ground with him, and say that yes, James does differentiate between “pure religion” and that which is “vain.” (James 1:26,27)

Also, the Apostle Paul writes in Colossians 2:16-23 about what your KY_NOLE buddy is probably equating with our Holy Catholic Faith. And, since he’s a critical outsider, maybe a non-denominational guy (?) it’s easy to see how he would think that. So, find a little common ground with him. We too, as Catholics, think such “vain religion” and superstition, is to be denounced… like… worshipping angels, and following spurious visions and people claiming to have “new revelation” from God, and “don’t touch this, don’t taste that” that’s not what we’re about at all!

But don’t flatter him! His error is a basic one, one in which if things were to work out his way, probably the “religion” he would advocate would eventually be remarkably…:bigyikes:…organized!!!

Show him texts like… Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-3, and then Hebrews 1:1 (the “last days” from Isaiah 2)… It’s the Church!!! And there’s only one. Yeah, point out Matthew 18:17.

Zechariah 12:8-10, and then… this is awesome!!!.. John 19:37

You can do it…Truth is on your side!!

He is part of a movement that champions the individual, and is suspicious of what he perceives to be an oppressive, monolithic, beaurocratic institution that tells people what to do and what to believe. And that’s understandable.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

It is ridiculous for him to prattle on about organization when we clearly see the organizing in Acts as described by Benedict in his recent encyclical:

1. A decisive step in the difficult search for ways of putting this fundamental ecclesial principle into practice is illustrated in the choice of the seven, which marked the origin of the diaconal office (cf. Acts 6:5-6). In the early Church, in fact, with regard to the daily distribution to widows, a disparity had arisen between Hebrew speakers and Greek speakers. The Apostles, who had been entrusted primarily with “prayer” (the Eucharist and the liturgy) and the “ministry of the word”, felt over-burdened by “serving tables”, so they decided to reserve to themselves the principal duty and to designate for the other task, also necessary in the Church, a group of seven persons. Nor was this group to carry out a purely mechanical work of distribution: they were to be men “full of the Spirit and of wisdom” (cf. Acts 6:1-6). In other words, the social service which they were meant to provide was absolutely concrete, yet at the same time it was also a spiritual service; theirs was a truly spiritual office which carried out an essential responsibility of the Church, namely a well-ordered love of neighbour. With the formation of this group of seven, “diaconia”—the ministry of charity exercised in a communitarian, orderly way—became part of the fundamental structure of the Church.

 

[Anonymous_1]

Scott Waddell:

It is ridiculous for him to prattle on about organization when we clearly see the organizing in Acts as described by Benedict in his recent encyclical:

beautifully put. thank you.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

Yes, on the issue of organized “religion” just go through and quote him some scripture about the heiarchy. He might be a little disturbed to find that the apostles founded…Churches . Sorry about the sarcasim but, I find his accusation rather odd.

“Upon this rock I will build **my church”. **

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Montie Claunch:

Yes, on the issue of organized “religion” just go through and quote him some scripture about the heiarchy. He might be a little disturbed to find that the apostles founded…Churches . Sorry about the sarcasim but, I find his accusation rather odd.

“Upon this rock I will build my church”.

Actually this won’t work with this guy because he distinguishes between organization and church. A false dilemma I know, but one he is laboring under and is not likely to give up. Things are received in the mode of the receiver as they say.

Scott

 

[trogiah]

. If you follow what Jesus said, do as HE said and as HE DID. You’d be fine…The reason why people rather be religious than DO WHAT JESUS DID is because they would have to acknowledge that they are sinners like EVERYONE ELSE.

Jesus ran and favored common folk, aka poor people, He spoke Aramaic, a language which is considered mostly a slang or EBONICS of HIS TIME. Jesus preferred the company of people of less social status over those who THINK they are important because of money or influence.

It’s easier to be involved in a ceremony, go to church on sundays, sit there, zone out, clap a few times, and hug others who look and act like you, Rather than it is to accept all people as equals.

If ya just believe in Christ, understand His vision for his people and try your best to live accordingly, the rest falls into place.

I find myself agreeing with some of what this person has to say but regarding organized religion and religious leaders he should consider what Jesus had to say about the leaders of his time and how the disciples were to respond to them:

From the 23rd chapter of Matthew-

"The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. "

Even should the human leaders of the Church go astray, and they have and they will again, We are still called to observe the basic teachings of the Church and give the leaders their due respect as inheritors of the chair of Peter.

This is one teaching of Jesus that the person you are conversing with seems to have missed.

Jim