Help needed- The Old Testament, rape, and slavery

[OnlyAmbrose]

I’ve been having an interesting discussion with an atheist, and several passages were brought to my attention.

Namely:

Numbers 31 (verses 7-18 in particular)
Judges 5 (verse 30 in particular)
Judges 21 (verses 10-24 in particular)
Deuteronomy 20 (verses 10-14 in particular)
Deuteronomy 21 (verses 10-14 in particular)

The common thread among these is a heavy implication of women being taken prisoner from conquered lands for the pleasures of the Israelites. I find it hard to believe that this is in the Bible. Do we have an explanation for this?

A few other odd points have come up.

Concerning slavery:

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Exodus 21:20-21

Seems darned harsh to me. I understand that as an American I am culturally biased against any mention of slavery, but it being ok “if the slave gets up in a day or two” seems rather… uncharitable?

Finally, another point he brought up was another puzzler. Why did God not make himself known to the other peoples of the world at the time of the OT as he did to the Israelites? (Native Americans, Japanese, etc).

Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

How does he know if God did not make himself known to other people in dreams and such?

Also, Romans speaks of “natural revelation” the whole creation bears witness to a creator.

as for the other things, I recommend you read the book,

The Problem of War in the Old Testament by Peter C. Craigie

read for historical context

 

[Huiou_Theou]

OnlyAmbrose,

Being shocked at reading a few sentences can make one not see the whole context. There are horrific events being recorded in these passages, but there are many
nuances not being explained for a 21st century reader.

These laws come from Moses, in a paternal/patriarchical sense. The rules BEFORE moses began imposing law
resembles gang warfare. Escalation and revenge
were common. Moses was not able to convert the hearts of
the Israelites in one fell swoop – it took centuries for them
to improve. What Moses did was lay the foundation for
the Israelites to change:

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Exodus 21:20-21

Did you notice that the main punishment of the surrounding
text is the death penalty? What do you think “he must be
punished” means here? Just a few verses down is the
comment “And eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.”
Up to this point, a slave may have been killed at will,
after this law – that is no longer permitted. (IT was an
improvement if not perfect justice.)

Numbers 31 (verses 7-18 in particular)

Notice here, that Moses did NOT give instruction to take the
women alive originally, but is faced with the Israelites
choosing to do so in Numbers 31:15.
Moses is in a no-win situation because he is not a ruler in
the sense of a king, (notice how quickly the Israelites
betray him multiple times elsewhere!).
The Israelite men are after wealth here.
Moses doesn’t want a riot – but he also doesn’t want the
corruption caused by greed. So he compromises.
God’s anger would be the most fierce if the Israelites married
women who would seduce them with Pagan incestuous
rituals – hence Moses chooses to allow them to keep
the women who might not be initiated into that yet.

Judges 5 (verse 30 in particular)
Judges 21 (verses 10-24 in particular)

The scriptures do not comment favorably on these passages.
The tribe of Benjamin was being wiped out for sin itself.
In essence, the tribe of Benjamin was considered no better
than the Pagans. It was a mercy to allow the tribe of
Benjamin to live at all, as well as the Pagan women who
had not yet been initiated into incestuous pagan worship
rituals. (See Lot and his two daughters… from Sodom).

The Israelite reasoning here is more of a least of all evils
approach rather than approval of taking women for spoil.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Deuteronomy 20 (verses 10-14 in particular)
Deuteronomy 21 (verses 10-14 in particular)

Deuteronomy – second law – is a later commentary on the
law as written by Moses. By this time, the compromise
made by Moses to save the lives of the most people possible
is codified.

Notice, however, the rising dignity of women in Deuteronomy 21.

Deute 21:11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
Deute 21:12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
Deute 21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
Deute 21:14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

The man is no longer able to do anything with her that he wishes. She has dignity which is in proportion to her
leaving the Pagan origin she had. There is also recognition
that “humbling” her comes at the price of her being accorded
the rights of a wife.

The abuse of women is always hedged in the OT with laws
and rules designed explicitly to force the men to reflect
on their dignity in order to curb the sin of all involved.

Far from saying God did not reveal himself to the Pagans,
one must realize that the Israelites were originally Pagan in
their father Abraham – and came to faith but slowly.

Also:
There are many examples of God revealing himself to the
Pagans – even in these horrid stories, the Israelites were
better than their enemies. Pharaoh – in Egypt – was directly
given a series of choices for or against God in miracles.
The “Unkown God” of the Greeks recorded in Acts is
also an event whereby God revealed himself partially to
the Greeks. (See Acts, and do some research).

The problem is that the bible is not , nor was it meant to be,
a manual of moral problems and solutions. It has historical
documents recording sin, and God’s saving action over time.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

Thank you very much for the help, it’s greatly appreciated.