Help needed with 'hell'?

[dorothy_smith]

I am trying to brainstorm some ideas for my essay assignment. Does anyone have any opinions with what I’ve jotted down so far? (I’ll make proper notes to post you when I’ve gathered some ideas. I’m just quickly jotting down anything that is coming into my mind. Your points of view would be very appreciated.

• Why would God who is all loving allow hell to exist?

• Nobody could ever commit a sin(s) deserving of such a fate

• No crime of man could ever befit the penalty of hell. It would be unjust. God is a just God.

• Some Catholics have argued that people choose to go to hell of their own free will??

• Anyone who chose to go to hell would not be in their right state of mind. They would have to be insane and therefore according to our God given human reasoning would not be punished for being incapable of making rational judgement

• Those whom Thou have appointed judges of men in our law courts could not ever impose a sentence of hell to anyone, not even to the most evil of man because they know by their God given reasoning that there is no crime(s) that could or ever could be in the makeup of mankind that could befit the sentencing of hell.

• Some Catholics have argued that man is not capable of understanding the fate of hell as eternal punishment - that it is beyond our reasoning. If that is the case then it would not be part of human justice. The punishment would be ‘divine punishment’ (an oxymoron per se) for higher beings not for mere mortals.

Any help please?

 

[paramedicgirl]

Dorothy, this would probably be better in the Apologetics forum.

 

[RobedWithLight]

I agree with paramedicgirl. This is a question more appropriate to the Apologetics forum. I suggest you repost your questions there. We have a lot of good frends there who would gladly help you.

 

[dorothy_smith]

I am trying to brainstorm some ideas for my essay assignment. Does anyone have any opinions with what I’ve jotted down so far? (I’ll make proper notes to post you when I’ve gathered some ideas. I’m just quickly jotting down anything that is coming into my mind. Your points of view would be very appreciated.

• Why would God who is all loving allow hell to exist?

• Nobody could ever commit a sin(s) deserving of such a fate

• No crime of man could ever befit the penalty of hell. It would be unjust. God is a just God.

• Some Catholics have argued that people choose to go to hell of their own free will??

• Anyone who chose to go to hell would not be in their right state of mind. They would have to be insane and therefore according to our God given human reasoning would not be punished for being incapable of making rational judgement

• Those whom Thou have appointed judges of men in our law courts could not ever impose a sentence of hell to anyone, not even to the most evil of man because they know by their God given reasoning that there is no crime(s) that could or ever could be in the makeup of mankind that could befit the sentencing of hell.

• Some Catholics have argued that man is not capable of understanding the fate of hell as eternal punishment; that it is beyond our reasoning. If that is the case then it would not be part of human justice. The punishment would be ‘divine punishment’ (an oxymoron per se) for higher beings not for mere mortals.

• God must have created Adam and Eve knowing that they would sin. It had to be part of His plan. God knows everything from beginning to end. So why punish them? Or is that why He gave them a second chance?

• God created the devil and hell as a deterrent for sinners not to sin (I think that is Catholic dogma?).

• If people are to love God wouldn’t it be better to love Him freely because that is what they want to do without any threat of punishment.

• We are meant to have free will but living under threat of the most severe punishment (hell) does not really equate to free will.

Any help please?

 

[Eireann]

Hell was made for the devil and his angels, not for humans, but through the fall, we can end up there.

Matt 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don’t know why the devil has this power, but Jesus did warn about it.

 

[thistle]

I am trying to brainstorm some ideas for my essay assignment. Does anyone have any opinions with what I’ve jotted down so far? (I’ll make proper notes to post you when I’ve gathered some ideas. I’m just quickly jotting down anything that is coming into my mind. Your points of view would be very appreciated.

• Why would God who is all loving allow hell to exist?

• Nobody could ever commit a sin(s) deserving of such a fate

• No crime of man could ever befit the penalty of hell. It would be unjust. God is a just God.

• Some Catholics have argued that people choose to go to hell of their own free will??

• Anyone who chose to go to hell would not be in their right state of mind. They would have to be insane and therefore according to our God given human reasoning would not be punished for being incapable of making rational judgement

• Those whom Thou have appointed judges of men in our law courts could not ever impose a sentence of hell to anyone, not even to the most evil of man because they know by their God given reasoning that there is no crime(s) that could or ever could be in the makeup of mankind that could befit the sentencing of hell.

• Some Catholics have argued that man is not capable of understanding the fate of hell as eternal punishment; that it is beyond our reasoning. If that is the case then it would not be part of human justice. The punishment would be ‘divine punishment’ (an oxymoron per se) for higher beings not for mere mortals.

• God must have created Adam and Eve knowing that they would sin. It had to be part of His plan. God knows everything from beginning to end. So why punish them? Or is that why He gave them a second chance?

• God created the devil and hell as a deterrent for sinners not to sin (I think that is Catholic dogma?).

• If people are to love God wouldn’t it be better to love Him freely because that is what they want to do without any threat of punishment.

• We are meant to have free will but living under threat of the most severe punishment (hell) does not really equate to free will.

Any help please?

Your so-called essay sounds just like another Catholic bashing exercise.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I highly recommend you read the sections in the Catechism on Hell…

IV. Hell

1033
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034
Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna,” of “the unquenchable fire” **reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.**614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036
The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

      Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037
God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

      Father, accept this offering
      from your whole family.
      Grant us your peace in this life,
      save us from final damnation,
      and count us among those you have chosen.622

(my emphasis added)…

HTH!

 

[mchale]

I am trying to brainstorm some ideas for my essay assignment. Does anyone have any opinions with what I’ve jotted down so far? (I’ll make proper notes to post you when I’ve gathered some ideas. I’m just quickly jotting down anything that is coming into my mind. Your points of view would be very appreciated.

• Why would God who is all loving allow hell to exist?

Because Hell is the consequence of the free decision to reject God. God loves us, and wants us to be with him, but he does not force us to choose him. If we choose to reject him, we choose not to be with him. Hell may be nothing more than the eternal seperation from God.

• Nobody could ever commit a sin(s) deserving of such a fate

How do you know? If we start from the proposition that God is all knowing, then God has vastly greater knowledge than we could ever hope to have. He would be a far better judge of that than we are.

• No crime of man could ever befit the penalty of hell. It would be unjust. God is a just God.

You are measuring justice by your measure, not God’s.

• Some Catholics have argued that people choose to go to hell of their own free will??

• Anyone who chose to go to hell would not be in their right state of mind. They would have to be insane and therefore according to our God given human reasoning would not be punished for being incapable of making rational judgement

Don’t think of it so much as people choosing to go to Hell, but rather failing to accept Christ’s judgement about their lives. You can argue that such people are out of their minds, but really wouldn’t God make allowances for that? I can certainly imagine people too proud to admit that the way they have lived their life was completely wrong regardless of the consequences.

I would recommend you read C.S. Lewis’s the Great Divorce. It gives a reasonable account of the sort of scenario discussed her.

• Those whom Thou have appointed judges of men in our law courts could not ever impose a sentence of hell to anyone, not even to the most evil of man because they know by their God given reasoning that there is no crime(s) that could or ever could be in the makeup of mankind that could befit the sentencing of hell.

I think rather because it is beyond their ability to impose such a sentence. Further, it is also a question of human falibility. How can a man ever be sure of his judgement. There is always a tiny doubt that a sentence is just. With God no such doubts can exist.

• Some Catholics have argued that man is not capable of understanding the fate of hell as eternal punishment; that it is beyond our reasoning. If that is the case then it would not be part of human justice. The punishment would be ‘divine punishment’ (an oxymoron per se) for higher beings not for mere mortals.

We are not mere mortals, we are in fact immortals, whose current bodies only happen to be mortal. Ultimately we are beings with a spark of the divine. Therefore punishment for higher beings is for us. We may not understand it now, but we will ultimately know it.

• God must have created Adam and Eve knowing that they would sin. It had to be part of His plan. God knows everything from beginning to end. So why punish them? Or is that why He gave them a second chance?

God created them with the ability to not sin, but knowing that they would. Part of the problem with being omniscient is that God must occasionally create with the knowledge that not everything he creates will come to a happy end, even if in the end it is for the greater good.

• God created the devil and hell as a deterrent for sinners not to sin (I think that is Catholic dogma?).

No, God, created the angel Lucifer, who choose to become the devil when he deemed himself worthy of God’s place and hell was the punishment he received for seperating himself from God.

• If people are to love God wouldn’t it be better to love Him freely because that is what they want to do without any threat of punishment.

In theory yes, but in reality that is impossible. Choosing to love or not love always has consequences. Lets say, you choose to not Love your family, are there not consequences to that choice as you seperate them from your life?

• We are meant to have free will but living under threat of the most severe punishment (hell) does not really equate to free will.

Free will does not mean being free from the consequences of one’s actions. I am not any less free to murder someone even though the law threatens prison or worse.

Any help please?

I would suggest reading some theology books on the question of hell. I personally would suggest starting with the Great Divorce… its not Catholic pre say, but it is a good introduction to us damning ourselves to hell.

–
Bill

 

[lizaanne]

Have a listen to the podcast on hell that can be found at the link in my signature, that might be helpful as well.

EDIT: Actually - use this link instead please, it will get you there faster: catholictelevision.org/

~Liza

 

[Michael_Francis]

Merged dupe threads.
MF

 

[Neithan]

Hi Dorothy,

my :twocents::

I am trying to brainstorm some ideas for my essay assignment. Does anyone have any opinions with what I’ve jotted down so far? (I’ll make proper notes to post you when I’ve gathered some ideas. I’m just quickly jotting down anything that is coming into my mind. Your points of view would be very appreciated.

• Why would God who is all loving allow hell to exist?

God does not stop loving those who are in hell, in fact, some theologians opine hell is suffering *because *God loves them but they are in such a state that they do not want God’s love, they despise Him.

• Nobody could ever commit a sin(s) deserving of such a fate

“Everything we do, echoes in eternity.” I’m sure you’ve heard that quote before–it was recently made famous in the movie *Gladiator *in the opening scenes (I’m not exactly sure where it originates).

Every thought, word and deed of yours is forever, you cannot *undo *it. You cannot alter the past. Merciless justice would demand eternal punishment for every wrong that you have ever done. On the other hand, mercy and forgiveness qualify justice and temper it.
If you violate the moral law to such an extent that you turn away from God entirely (something that not only impedes but destroys your moral progress), that is an eternal action in the moment it is committed. A mortal sin is such that you *know *you will be forever condemned, but you do it anway! The only way for it to be undone is God’s forgiveness, which He readily offers to anyone who asks. His forgiveness is such that He will ‘blot out’ the memory of your sin as if it never happened. That is the only way for you to escape its punishment.

The real wonder is not in hell but heaven: nothing we possibly do could merit eternal bliss! Certainly our good moral actions would merit eternal rewards (and it may be said that basically ‘good people’ who tragically die in mortal sin receive considerably less punishment in hell), but the vision of God? That is way beyond anything we deserve.

• Anyone who chose to go to hell would not be in their right state of mind. They would have to be insane and therefore according to our God given human reasoning would not be punished for being incapable of making rational judgement

Nobody chooses hell in and of itself. They risk the eternal good (God) in exchange for a temporary good (money, sex, power etc.) and therefore gain a nearly infinite ‘net’ loss of good. That loss is forever experienced after the temporary goods of this life inevitably end with death. As Howie Mandel says: “not such a good deal.”
This does not demand insanity. I have personally sinned thinking “well I *might *go to hell… but damnit I just have to do this!”
Of course God does not offer us direct ‘sampling’ of the experience of heaven or hell so as not to unduly influence our free will.

• Those whom Thou have appointed judges of men in our law courts could not ever impose a sentence of hell to anyone, not even to the most evil of man because they know by their God given reasoning that there is no crime(s) that could or ever could be in the makeup of mankind that could befit the sentencing of hell.

The primary suffering of hell is in its loss of God. God is eternal. It isn’t a positive thing but a negative thing (you’re *deprived *of something), and this must be consciously known by a sinner who grievously offends God.

It is a consequence of free will, because you simply choose that you would rather not be God’s friend and spend eternity with him than avoid some illicit temporary pleasures of this life. Tragic, infinitely tragic–but true. Every moment of every day has eternal gravity.

• Some Catholics have argued that man is not capable of understanding the fate of hell as eternal punishment - that it is beyond our reasoning. If that is the case then it would not be part of human justice. The punishment would be ‘divine punishment’ (an oxymoron per se) for higher beings not for mere mortals.

I would say this is false. A bit of sophistry. I know what eternity is, though I have not–and never will–experience it.

Hope this helps.

 

[jemfinch]

Matt 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don’t know why the devil has this power, but Jesus did warn about it.

The devil doesn’t have this power. Jesus was telling people to fear God.

Jeremy

 

[dorothy_smith]

Your so-called essay sounds just like another Catholic bashing exercise.

I didn’t deserve that.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

• Why would God who is all loving allow hell to exist?

Because love which is not freely given, is not love at all. If men deliberately reject the grace God gives them, they deserve the fate which results from that free choice.• Nobody could ever commit a sin(s) deserving of such a fate

I disagree. I think instead that nobody deserves any gift given to them by God, to include heaven. Heaven is a gift, not something owed by God to anyone.• No crime of man could ever befit the penalty of hell. It would be unjust. God is a just God.
I disagree. Only the merciless will be shown no mercy, according to Divine authority. Seems quite fair to me.

The punishment of hell is measured in accord with the crimes deliberately committed.• Some Catholics have argued that people choose to go to hell of their own free will??
Yes. That has been the constant teaching of authentic Christianity since the avent of Christ. Except the way in which this is understood is that they freely commit evil deeds and so are deserving of the consequences of those deeds. For instance, a man contemplates raping a woman, and knows the potential punishment for such a crime. He decides to rape her anyway for quite unholy reasons, yet he doesn’t believe he will receive that punishment. He believes it possible justice will be served, but presumes he will get away with it.

In the end, he does indeed get caught and is punished fairly by lawful authority. He knew the gravity of the offense and the potential punishment involved, but deliberately committed the crime anyway. Just because he was pesumed he would suffer just punishment, that is no justification for excusing a just punishment, is it?• Anyone who chose to go to hell would not be in their right state of mind.
Nobody who commits a sin is in the “right” mind, by definition. We are only in our “right” mind when we do good.

What I think you should contemplate is what you mean by the word “just.” What is your objective criteria for determining what is “just?” For Christians, the objective norm is God’s Word. Thus, it is not man’s concept of justice that matters, but only God’s Word that matters.

The manner in which people freely choose hell is by freely choosing to do evil knowing full well of the possibility of being punished. If one believes in free will–a fundamental precept of Christianity–then one deserves praise for doing good and punishment for doing evil, in accord with the voluntariness of the human act. Only completely involuntary acts are without culpability.• Those whom Thou have appointed judges of men in our law courts could not ever impose a sentence of hell to anyone, .
Obviously, because only God can impose the sentence of hell.
• … they know by their God given reasoning that there is no crime(s) that could or ever could be in the makeup of mankind that could befit the sentencing of hell
I disagree. That is NOT the reason at all. The reason is that we cannot know the voluntariness of the crime with perfect knowledge. We cannot see inside the heart of men. God can.

God is the judge, and he is omniscient. We don’t rely upon imperfect judges to know the hearts of other men. God knows the voluntariness of our evil and good acts, and as such, is perfectly qualifited to determine the just punishment for those who remain impenitent of grave sins committed with perfect consent and full knowledge. • Some Catholics have argued that man is not capable of understanding the fate of hell as eternal punishment - that it is beyond our reasoning.
I disagree. Even a child can understand that eternal happiness or eternal punishment are the two ways before us after we die. That’s not beyond human understanding.

If this paper is a theology paper, then you first have to decide what is the norm for determining truth and justice. For Christianity, the norm for determining truth and justice is AUTHORITY. If Divine authority determines it is just to flood the world and destroy all of His creation excepting Noah and his family, that that is the final criteria for determining what is just.

Determining what is just and true is not about what one subjectively “feels” is just and true, which seems to be your argument thus far.

Truth and justice has everything to do with the decree of authority. What authority do you cite that tells you that eternal punishment for the wicked is not just? That’s how you should use to support your argument in your paper, otherwise your paper will be reduced to a subjective treatise about your feelings.

What does the organs of true authority of justice say on the matter?

 

[Legal_Eagle]

I agree with the poster that suggested that you serach the Catechism. You can also google John Paul II’s comments on the subject. Some good articles are here:

catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj041406.asp

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0593.asp

Here’s a thumbnail sketch of what I think you will find.

Catholics believe that God gave us free will. We are free to accept God. We are also free to reject God. If we are ***not ***free to reject God, then we really don’t have free will at all, but only an illusion of free will. Those who freely accept God spend eternity where God is. Heavan is where God is. Those freely reject God spend eternity where God is not. Hell is where God is not.

Hope that helps.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Hell was made for the devil and his angels, not for humans, but through the fall, we can end up there.

Matt 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don’t know why the devil has this power, but Jesus did warn about it.

St. Augustine describes this fear as fear of the Lord, not fear of the devil.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Hello Dave – your points of view are most interesting and helpful.

• Why would God who is all loving allow hell to exist?
Because love which is not freely given, is not love at all. If men deliberately reject the grace God gives them, they deserve the fate which results from that free choice.

Yes, but we’re only on earth a millisecond of time compared to eternity. We might not be sinners always. We might change our mind about rejecting God’s grace. There are reformed prisoners aren’t there?

• Nobody could ever commit a sin(s) deserving of such a fate
I disagree. I think instead that nobody deserves any gift given to them by God, to include heaven. Heaven is a gift, not something owed by God to anyone.

We might not deserve Heaven but we definitely don’t deserve hell (not fire and brimstone).

• No crime of man could ever befit the penalty of hell. It would be unjust. God is a just God.
I disagree. Only the merciless will be shown no mercy, according to Divine authority. Seems quite fair to me.

That doesn’t seem fair to me. It sounds rather heartless and callous. Would a just God be so vengeful?

The punishment of hell is measured in accord with the crimes deliberately committed.

No crime of man could ever befit the punishment of hell. Unless you mean the punishment of hell is matched equally to the crime perpetrated.

• Some Catholics have argued that people choose to go to hell of their own free will??
Yes. That has been the constant teaching of authentic Christianity since the avent of Christ. Except the way in which this is understood is that they freely commit evil deeds and so are deserving of the consequences of those deeds. For instance, a man contemplates raping a woman, and knows the potential punishment for such a crime. He decides to rape her anyway for quite unholy reasons, yet he doesn’t believe he will receive that punishment. He believes it possible justice will be served, but presumes he will get away with it.

I disagree. He might be terrified afterwards. Also, the rape victim would rightly want him punished but she/he wouldn’t want him punished indefinitely.

In the end, he does indeed get caught and is punished fairly by lawful authority. He knew the gravity of the offense and the potential punishment involved, but deliberately committed the crime anyway. Just because he was pesumed he would suffer just punishment, that is no justification for excusing a just punishment, is it?

Hell cannot logically be a just punishment.

• Anyone who chose to go to hell would not be in their right state of mind.
Nobody who commits a sin is in the “right” mind, by definition. We are only in our “right” mind when we do good.

What I think you should contemplate is what you mean by the word “just.” What is your objective criteria for determining what is “just?”

God given human reasoning. ‘Justice’ in human reasoning is the punishment befitting the crime. Anything else is above human reasoning and therefore non negotiable.

For Christians, the objective norm is God’s Word. Thus, it is not man’s concept of justice that matters, but only God’s Word that matters.

I am arguing against the conception of man and his rationality in his understanding of Christianity. I am not questioning the Word of God.

 

[dorothy_smith]

I agree with the poster that suggested that you serach the Catechism. You can also google John Paul II’s comments on the subject. Some good articles are here:

catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj041406.asp

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0593.asp

Heavan is where God is. Those freely reject God spend eternity where God is not. Hell is where God is not.

Hope that helps.

Yes, but in the Book of Revelation it mentions terrifying aspects of hell being fire and brimstone?

I’ve read the CCC for a number of years but i don’t always agree with all of it. I also like to get a wider perspective from other sources as well - outside of Catholic dogma. (CS Lewis is good).

I will look up the websites that you listed.

 

[StCsDavid]

There are ample resources readily available that discuss the Catholic view of Hell.

I want to offer you my own humble opinion on the matter. Just as we cannot possibly comprehend in human terms the splendor, beauty, perfection, and unfathomable joy of Heaven where we are in full communion with God; neither can we possibly comprehend the pure horror of being without God. If you don’t have even a vision of God, you have nothing but an inward view of self. My idea of Hell is not getting poked by pitchfork, but rather a complete implosion of the soul to the point of nothingness. A total loss of the senses to the point that being burned would be a welcomed change from the utter isolation in which one would exist; except in this state there would be no such thing as hope. Think of a sensory deprivation chamber from which there was no escape. There would be no despair over the loss of God as in such an existence, one would have no knowledge of God…only the miserable, lonely, devoid of all passion…of all anything, state of being in the dark.

Anyway, that’s all my own opinion. I’m sure the resident theologians will take me to task, but until they can produce their own snapshots of the place, this is the Hell I very much hope to avoid.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .We might not deserve Heaven but we definitely don’t deserve hell (not fire and brimstone).

. . .That doesn’t seem fair to me. It sounds rather heartless and callous. Would a just God be so vengeful?

. . .No crime of man could ever befit the punishment of hell. Unless you mean the punishment of hell is matched equally to the crime perpetrated.

. . .Hell cannot logically be a just punishment. . .

St. Teresa of Jesus, a Doctor of the Church, experienced otherwise:

1. Some considerable time after our Lord had bestowed upon me the graces I have been describing, and others also of a higher nature, I was one day in prayer when I found myself in a moment, without knowing how, plunged apparently into hell. I understood that it was our Lord’s will I should see the place which the devils kept in readiness for me, and which I had deserved by my sins. It was but a moment, but it seems to me impossible I should ever forget it even if I were to live many years.

1. The entrance seemed to be by a long narrow pass, like a furnace, very low, dark, and close. The ground seemed to be saturated with water, mere mud, exceedingly foul, sending forth pestilential odours, and covered with loathsome vermin. At the end was a hollow place in the wall, like a closet, and in that I saw myself confined. All this was even pleasant to behold in comparison with what I felt there. There is no exaggeration in what I am saying.

1. But as to what I then felt, I do not know where to begin, if I were to describe it; it is utterly inexplicable. I felt a fire in my soul. I cannot see how it is possible to describe it. My bodily sufferings were unendurable. I have undergone most painful sufferings in this life, and, as the physicians say, the greatest that can be borne, such as the contraction of my sinews when I was paralysed,[1] without speaking of others of different kinds, yea, even those of which I have also spoken,[2] inflicted on me by Satan; yet all these were as nothing in comparison with what I felt then, especially when I saw that there would be no intermission, nor any end to them.

1. These sufferings were nothing in comparison with the anguish of my soul, a sense of oppression, of stifling, and of pain so keen, accompanied by so hopeless and cruel an infliction, that I know not how to speak of it. If I said that the soul is continually being torn from the body, it would be nothing, for that implies the destruction of life by the hands of another but here it is the soul itself that is tearing itself in pieces. I cannot describe that inward fire or that despair, surpassing all torments and all pain. I did not see who it was that tormented me, but I felt myself on fire, and torn to pieces, as it seemed to me; and, I repeat it, this inward fire and despair are the greatest torments of all.

1. Left in that pestilential place, and utterly without the power to hope for comfort, I could neither sit nor lie down: there was no room. I was placed as it were in a hole in the wall; and those walls, terrible to look on of themselves, hemmed me in on every side. I could not breathe. There was no light, but all was thick darkness. I do not understand how it is; though there was no light, yet everything that can give pain by being seen was visible.

1. Our Lord at that time would not let me see more of hell. Afterwards, I had another most fearful vision, in which I saw the punishment of certain sins. They were most horrible to look at; but, because I felt none of the pain, my terror was not so great. In the former vision, our Lord made me really feel those torments, and that anguish of spirit, just as if I had been suffering them in the body there. I know not how it was, but I understood distinctly that it was a great mercy that our Lord would have me see with mine own eyes the very place from which His compassion saved me. La Vida, ch. 32.