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itsjustdave1988
Guest
More argument by “feelings”…no authority being cited. Again I ask what does the Word of God teach on this matter? Christianity is a “revealed” teaching, right? What does that revelation say on the matter?
If this is true, then I recommend you cite the Word of God in support of your conclusions.
Here’s an example…St. John’s vision of the end given to Him by God and written in Sacred Scripture describes the “bad guys” of the Bible being thrust into the “lake of fire” and their torment lasting “forever and ever.” Yet you contend, “that’s not fair!!!” Isn’t that correct?
If I’ve understood your thesis correctly, I believe you are indeed contending against God’s Word.
“…and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Rev 20:10). See also Rev 19:20, 20:14, 20:15, and 22:18.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Correct. Do you agree with the Book of Revelation, or do you contend against it?
You said with regard to the Scriptural contention that only the merciless will be shown no mercy…
Again, although you claim you are not contending against God’s Word, you are.
I’d say that before you can continue in theology, you have to make up your mind about whether you accept the Bible as an authoritative organ of the truth.
Is this a theology discussion where we have common ground epistemologically speaking, or is this a apologetics discussion where you are as-of-yet unconvinced of the Divine testimony of Sacred Scritpure?
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
James 2:13 “judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy”
Matt 6:15 “if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matt 6:15 “if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
dorothy_smith,
Instead of attempting to deny the everlasting punishment spoken of in Sacred Scripture, I suggest that you consider something different for your paper.
See here…
The Population of Hell
by Cardinal Avery Dulles
Here’s an excerpt…
Instead of attempting to deny the everlasting punishment spoken of in Sacred Scripture, I suggest that you consider something different for your paper.
See here…
The Population of Hell
by Cardinal Avery Dulles
Here’s an excerpt…
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dorothy_smith
Guest
I’m a cradle Catholic who happens to have a disposition towards deism. My priest tells me that there is nothing wrong with that; that it is good to examine our faith. So, yes, I am inquisitive in regard to revealed teaching.
Perhaps my understanding of scripture differs from the orthodox, but still, that shouldn’t stop me questioning Christian dogma, right? After all, synods of bishops have been doing just that for 2000 years. The CCC definitions of certain passages of scripture seem, sometimes at least, to be at odds with the written Word.
(At times, I find it alarming that some Catholics have more faith in the doctrine of Catholicism than they do in the actual Word of God.)
In addition, Jesus speaks in parables throughout the NT. Therefore, perhaps we ought to follow His example and don’t take the written Word literally but allegorically. Argument based on one’s own rationality (or “feelings”) in deciphering the Word of God could be said to be just as “authoritative”, if not more so, than the literal definition.
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Mintaka
Guest
So, basically, you’re saying that if I ever speak to you metaphorically, you will take everything I say metaphorically? And if I ever tell you a little story or joke with a point about life, you’ll assume “I’d like fries with that” is some kind of Zen koan?
Speech and writing are done in different tones and different genres. We try to understand what people say and write in the way they meant it. Logically, then, we should do the same thing when we read the Bible.
However, since the Bible is the Word of God, we also find that we have to take what the Bible says in the way God meant it – and that’s multiple ways. (Other commenters can give you a good explanation of the various “senses” of the Bible.) For example, there are parts of the Old Testament which not only talked about actual historical happenings, but also foreshadowed Jesus as the Messiah. We know this, not only because the Church tells us so, but because we hear in the Gospels how Jesus told the disciples these things both before and after He came back from the dead.
Jesus sometimes spoke to His disciples in parables, yes. But He also explained those parables, and very clearly, too. More clearly than we really like, to be honest.
So why would God go to all the trouble of creating humans, becoming one Himself, and running around Israel preaching and dying, if He didn’t plan to say what He meant and mean what He said? If He was just kidding, or Hell wasn’t as bad as He was saying, He certainly went to a great deal of trouble for nothing.
Finally, a nitpick. ‘Hell’ is a proper noun, and should be capitalized. I know everybody’s going all Middle English about this stuff and refusing to capitalize anything, but that doesn’t make it good grammar.
Speech and writing are done in different tones and different genres. We try to understand what people say and write in the way they meant it. Logically, then, we should do the same thing when we read the Bible.
However, since the Bible is the Word of God, we also find that we have to take what the Bible says in the way God meant it – and that’s multiple ways. (Other commenters can give you a good explanation of the various “senses” of the Bible.) For example, there are parts of the Old Testament which not only talked about actual historical happenings, but also foreshadowed Jesus as the Messiah. We know this, not only because the Church tells us so, but because we hear in the Gospels how Jesus told the disciples these things both before and after He came back from the dead.
Jesus sometimes spoke to His disciples in parables, yes. But He also explained those parables, and very clearly, too. More clearly than we really like, to be honest.
So why would God go to all the trouble of creating humans, becoming one Himself, and running around Israel preaching and dying, if He didn’t plan to say what He meant and mean what He said? If He was just kidding, or Hell wasn’t as bad as He was saying, He certainly went to a great deal of trouble for nothing.
Finally, a nitpick. ‘Hell’ is a proper noun, and should be capitalized. I know everybody’s going all Middle English about this stuff and refusing to capitalize anything, but that doesn’t make it good grammar.
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Eireann
Guest
Thanks to you both for the clarification, probably makes sense to the ,wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Why do you believe that the scriptures are the word of God?
Who revealed that to you?
Actually, it was the interpretation of the Catholic Church that defined which letters and written stories qualified as scripture (through the grace of the Holy Spirit).
So, if you believe that the church was guided correctly to interpret these writings as scripture… then it’s quite logical to follow the church’s interpretation of the writings.
Yes, some are literal, some are allegorical… it varies. But we have a guide for that interpretation.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Yes, I read that on your profile. Let me tell you, I was precisely where you are at, a Catholic tending toward deism, just a few decades ago. So I understand where you are coming from. However, Deism is incompatible with supernatural revelation by definition.de·ism (dē’ĭz’əm, dā’-) n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation. (Dictionary.com)I was faced with a crossroad with regard to Christianity or Deism. They cannot both be true. Faced with the such a crossroad, I looked to the ancient path, and that is where I found real change (Gk metanoia) in my life. That is where I finally found rest for my soul. I never found such rest within Deism.
Either God interacts personally with His creation or He does not. One cannot hold to both. After studying both Christianity and Deism, I found Deism to be unconvincing. I’m an engineer, so I understand the urge to design and “create.” In a small and entirely imperfect way compared to that of God’s creation, I understand the joy of creating. In my experience, such joy is incompatible with an abandonment of one’s creation. Deism inists that God is simply a dead-beat Dad. After much prayerful contemplation, I found such a claim absurd, completely contrary to the real experience of God in my life.
If the supernatural God would trouble himself to create nature from nothing, then it made no sense to me that He would not trouble Himself to continue to supernaturally interact with that which he created. In the final analysis, I had to reject Deism as just one of many erroneous understandings of God and His Will for me.
That’s great…because it is only through constant seeking that we will find what we are looking for.
We are called to contend for the faith once and for all delivered in the first century, and that is what each synod for the past 2000 years attempted to do. No synod sought to contend against what is taught in Sacred Scripture. Thus, Christian doctrine has been and will always be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture.
The word “dogma” means “revealed truth.” If one questions FOR the truth insofar as they are seeking to better understand it, that is certainly a holy and pius endeavor, it is a contention FOR the truth. However, if one contends AGAINST Sacred Scripture, then they clearly contend against Divine truth, which is a sinful and impious endeavor. One ought to carefully choose what they are contending for and what they are contending against.
I contended against the truth for decades. It didn’t work out so well for me. Such impious contention had an unholy affect on my soul. That unholy affect was obvious to others before it became painfully obvious to me. However, once it did become obvious, a change was in order.
continued…
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
continued…
Once one discovers that the Catholic Church is that Church which Jesus built, the Church He himself speaks of, then Christ’s words, “He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me” brings to light the truth that the Church does indeed speak with the voice of Christ.
I don’t have MORE belief in Church than I do Christ, nor do I have LESS belief in the Church than I do Christ. On the contrary, my Creed includes belief in both, because in a mysterious manner, they are one and the same body.
We ought instead to treat the written word in the manner it was intended by the author. Why would the author speak of an everlasting punishment in a figurative way, but intend that the punishment was not really evertlasting? Does that make sense? Not really. While “fire” may be understood to be figurative, there doesn’t seem to be any internal or external evidence regarding Scripture to lead us to conclude the figure of the “smoke which last forever and ever” does not connote everlasting punishment.
Is it your contention that the authorial intent of the passages of Scripture which says, “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Rev 20:10) should be understood as the author figuratively meaning “they will not be tormented forever?” Is that really your honest interpretation, or are you just denying what the author himself clearly states?
I think if one looks at the objective evidence of Scripture without attempting to read into the words something contrary to the plain sense of the words used (figurative or otherwise), then one has to conlude that Scritpure testifies to an everlasting punishment.
If it is really “help” that you are asking for with regard to hell, then I recommen you prayerfully read the words of Scripture, listening to what is being taught by the Sacred Author.
Avoid the temptation to deny the plain sense of the words the Sacred Author uses. Avoid attempting linguistic gymnastics in order to turn his very words into something obviously contrary to his point. If you do so, I think you will truly be helped with regard to the truth of hell.
PS. When I had deistic leanings, I had such absurd confidence that the Church was wrong. I say “absurd” because at that time, I had not even bothered to read the Bible cover to cover. Can you imagine someone thinking they were wiser than the 2000-year-old Church about Christ’s teaching, yet not bothering to even read the Bible once through? The holy Catholic monks of ancient Christianity memorized large passages of Sacred Scripture and chanted them daily as they worked, yet I hadn’t bothered even to read the Bible once. Eventually, it became humbly clear to me that my conclusions were likely dubious given my lax effort at actually trying to study what the Church had spent her 2000-yr life contemplating. After I resolved to be a better student, something rather odd happened…I became Catholic.
I’ve not cited the CCC, but I have cited Sacred Scripture directly, and it seems clear that the passages of the written Word of God contends that there is indeed a punishment for some which lasts forever and ever, right?
I understand, as I had the same view at one time in my life. However, I studied Scripture evermore and discovered that Jesus Himself equates the Church to Himself. Christ and the Church share the very same body. For instance, when Jesus chastised Saul, he says “Why are you persecuting ME.” Jesus was in heaven, so how was Saul persectuting HIM? By persecuting His CHURCH. So Jesus equates HIMSELF with His CHURCH. There can be no dichotomy of Jesus OR the Church, as Scripture clearly contends that there is a unity between Christ and his Church, so much of a unity that He speaks of the Church as Himself.
Once one discovers that the Catholic Church is that Church which Jesus built, the Church He himself speaks of, then Christ’s words, “He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me” brings to light the truth that the Church does indeed speak with the voice of Christ.
I don’t have MORE belief in Church than I do Christ, nor do I have LESS belief in the Church than I do Christ. On the contrary, my Creed includes belief in both, because in a mysterious manner, they are one and the same body.
Sometimes, but not always. If I were to write in one context, “love is a rose,” but later write in a different context “warning: consuming this substance may result in death,” would you treat each as though I was being poetic and figurative? That would be absurd, right?
We ought instead to treat the written word in the manner it was intended by the author. Why would the author speak of an everlasting punishment in a figurative way, but intend that the punishment was not really evertlasting? Does that make sense? Not really. While “fire” may be understood to be figurative, there doesn’t seem to be any internal or external evidence regarding Scripture to lead us to conclude the figure of the “smoke which last forever and ever” does not connote everlasting punishment.
Is it your contention that the authorial intent of the passages of Scripture which says, “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Rev 20:10) should be understood as the author figuratively meaning “they will not be tormented forever?” Is that really your honest interpretation, or are you just denying what the author himself clearly states?
I think if one looks at the objective evidence of Scripture without attempting to read into the words something contrary to the plain sense of the words used (figurative or otherwise), then one has to conlude that Scritpure testifies to an everlasting punishment.
If it is really “help” that you are asking for with regard to hell, then I recommen you prayerfully read the words of Scripture, listening to what is being taught by the Sacred Author.
Avoid the temptation to deny the plain sense of the words the Sacred Author uses. Avoid attempting linguistic gymnastics in order to turn his very words into something obviously contrary to his point. If you do so, I think you will truly be helped with regard to the truth of hell.
PS. When I had deistic leanings, I had such absurd confidence that the Church was wrong. I say “absurd” because at that time, I had not even bothered to read the Bible cover to cover. Can you imagine someone thinking they were wiser than the 2000-year-old Church about Christ’s teaching, yet not bothering to even read the Bible once through? The holy Catholic monks of ancient Christianity memorized large passages of Sacred Scripture and chanted them daily as they worked, yet I hadn’t bothered even to read the Bible once. Eventually, it became humbly clear to me that my conclusions were likely dubious given my lax effort at actually trying to study what the Church had spent her 2000-yr life contemplating. After I resolved to be a better student, something rather odd happened…I became Catholic.
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dorothy_smith
Guest
I prefer this definition: **“Do Deists believe that God created the creation and the world and then just stepped back from it? ** Some Deists do and some believe God may intervene in human affairs. For example, when George Washington was faced with either a very risky evacuation of the American troops from Long Island or surrendering them, he chose the more risky evacuation. When questioned about the possibility of having them annihilated he said it was the best he could do and the rest was up to Providence.
Do Deists pray? Only prayers of thanks and appreciation - We don’t dictate to God.” (ref. source? I’ve lost it)
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dorothy_smith
Guest
Yes, the (D)evil and (H)ell are proper nouns but, I, personally, don’t like to capitalize them because I think that it gives them a certain type of undeserved dignity when theologizing. Whereas, when we refer to God as Him, we ungrammatically capitalize the personal pronoun ‘He’ as a sign of respect - paying Him reverence.Finally, a nitpick. ‘Hell’ is a proper noun, and should be capitalized. I know everybody’s going all Middle English about this stuff and refusing to capitalize anything, but that doesn’t make it good grammar.
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dorothy_smith
Guest
I am pleased that you are at peace with your soul. I feel unrest within my soul. I feel that I am (without meaning to sound melodramatic or anything) possessed by the devil. That is to say, I can’t seem to shake off horrible reoccurring thoughts of my own personal damnation. I feel kind of like the devil is lurking within my mind.
Yes, I agree, but perhaps from a different perspective than you. I believe that God interacts with us more on a personal level of understanding than to what is taught (ingrained in us) through revealed religion. When I say ‘revealed religion’ I don’t mean sacred scripture. I revere and believe what Jesus teaches in the NT.
No, I am not anti-religious. I think that ‘all’ revealed religions have a place within the context of their placement, that is to say - a society’s cultural background inevitably affects that community’s belief system.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I think perhaps it is deism that is the source of your unrest. It was one of many causes to my unrest.
***Jer 6:16 - "This is what the LORD says: “Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.” ***
At those times, you might try obsessing upon something else…you might try contemplating the following passages…
Psalm 23 “The LORD is my shepherd…surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever”
1 Tim 2:3-4 “God our Savior…desires all men to be saved”
St. Clement of Rome (ca. AD 80) "We are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us… If we review the various ages of history, we will see that in every generation the LORD has offered the opportunity of repentance to any who were willing to turn to him."
St. Athanasius (ca.AD 358): "when someone falls from the Spirit through any wickedness—that grace indeed remains irrevocably with those who are willing to repent after such a fall." (Discourses Against the Arians, 3, 24-25).
You are in my prayers.
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quasimodo
Guest
to correct an apparent misunderstanding … eternity is NOT infinite time… it is a state of being
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I’m not sure I understand your point. The punishment of hell is everlasting, that is, without end. That’s what “for ever and ever” means, no?
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