Help needed with this line of reasoning

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My sister, who is a fallen away Catholic, let loose this doozy when commenting on the good her atheist husband does -

“At least when he does anything good, I know it comes from his heart and not because some religion tells him to do it or because he’s trying to avoid hell”

Implying, simply, that any good action from a Christian is tainted with selfishness or predicated on avoiding hell.

How would one counter that line of reasoning?
 
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Simply point out that even the Atheist is doing good with selfish motives. When the Atheist does a good act, what is his motive? Is it because it gives him a good feeling? Is it because he wants to impress his peers? Is it because he wants to avoid a bad feeling (he’ll feel guilty if he doesn’t)? All of above are selfish motives since they’re primarily concerned with enhancing the feelings of self.
 
Well, I guess you assume that the only motive Catholics have for doing good to ones neighbor is out of fear of hell or some religion telling them too? We assume that only God can judge someone’s motive as to why they do the things they do.
Hopefully a mature believer does good works to please the beloved. Someone who loves God first wants to love as Christ does. We do our charity for love of God and neighbor but only God knows the intentions of the heart and you assume you know why your husband does what he does… All assumption. That is what I might say, if it didn’t cause an argument. @inquirer
 
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Point out that most religious people do good out of love (the golden rule) not out of fear. Also, why does her husband do good? where does the desire to do good come from? For the atheist, it all comes down to cosmic dust, so there is no reason for meaning or morality. As Nietzsche says: nothing one does matters in the end.
 
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I would say something like this:

Every time a person does good it is either out of perfect intentions or imperfect intentions.

Perfect intentions are out of love (for God and/or for the other person) and/or true justice.

Imperfect intentions are out of fear (fear of hell; fear of disappointing a loved one, friend, boss, teacher; fear of jail, etc.).

Just because an atheist does good, it doesn’t mean the motivation is always perfect. It can be imperfect.

And honestly, while we strive for perfect intentions, there is NOTHING wrong with imperfect intentions when doing good, as long as the person is still trying to grow in love, hope & charity.

So just because an atheist isn’t doing something out of a fear of hell doesn’t mean they aren’t doing something out of another fear.

Finally, the idea that Christians only do good out of fear of hell is ridiculous. Sure, there might be SOME things a person does or doesn’t do out of a fear of hell, but I hardly think that’s most actions. After all, God has created ALL humans (baptized and not) to recognize the moral law.

I pray this helps a little.

God Bless
 
John 14:6. Following the Lord and acting in faith all flows from God and are gifts from Him and not what we do on our own. What good an atheist does has nothing to do with God and like Cain’s sacrifice, God ignores it.
 
One other example:

How many people obey the speed limit because they respect the law? And how many people obey the speed limit because they don’t want a ticket & points on their license?

Obeying the speed limit because they honor the law would be a perfect intention.

Obeying the speed limit because they fear a ticket would be an imperfect intention.

The goal is for people not to break the speed limit. Their motivation is not the primary concern, obeying the law is (though, yes, it best to have noble, aka perfect, intentions).

God Bless & God Speed
 
They could not speed not only because they respect the law, but also because they understand the reasons behind the law, and that ultimately it protects everyone on the road, and if we love our fellow humans, we want everyone to survive driving on the highway.
So, love is why we drive the speed limit.
Not to mention, what will sister say when atheist hubby doesn’t feel like doing good?
 
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Obeying God for love of God is nothing like good done for other reasons period.
 
I wouldn’t respond. She is atheist and you are Catholic. You aren’t going to believe the same things. No point in arguing
 
Loud-living-dogma said:
They could not speed not only because they respect the law, but also because they understand the reasons behind the law, and that ultimately it protects everyone on the road, and if we love our fellow humans, we want everyone to survive driving on the highway.
So, love is why we drive the speed limit.
Not to mention, what will sister say when atheist hubby doesn’t feel like doing good?
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Yeap… love
 
JMMJ said:
I wouldn’t respond. She is atheist and you are Catholic. You aren’t going to believe the same things. No point in arguing
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No, the husband is atheist, the sister is a fallen away Catholic.

If once can’t have a charitable conversation about religion with one’s own sister, then whom can we?
 
Ok. Then I still wouldn’t engage, as she doesn’t believe the same way you do. I am all for engaging with others, when it contributes to a healthy and loving relationship. In my experience, fighting about religion usually doesn’t get you there.
 
JMMJ said:
In my experience, fighting about religion usually doesn’t get you there.
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That’s why I said “in charity.” It needs to be with charity. We should all strive to learn how to evangelize our family WITH CHARITY.
 
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Your view of charity, in this scenario, will likely be viewed as nothing more than butting in.

In your scenario…. no women wants her brother telling her about her own husband and what motivates him to do good works. That is how it will be perceived. .Trust me on this one. No good will come from it.
 
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Inquirer said:
How would one counter that line of reasoning?
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You could start by pointing out that her deduction is faulty. There are still plenty of selfish reasons to do something good other than avoiding hell or following religious teachings. But it’s cute that she assumes it’s coming from his heart.
 
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I think even atheists hear from God to some capacity. How does she know he isn’t moved by the creator to do good, unknowingly?

And the implication here being that structure and discipline is a bad thing. Which is ridiculous.
 
Inquirer said:
How would one counter that line of reasoning?
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I read a few of the messages, it sounds as though your sister is not an atheist?

So, if that’s the case, then you should appeal to her belief in God.
My sister, who is a fallen away Catholic, let loose this doozy when commenting on the good her atheist husband does -

“At least when he does anything good, I know it comes from his heart and not because some religion tells him to do it or because he’s trying to avoid hell”

Implying, simply, that any good action from a Christian is tainted with selfishness or predicated on avoiding hell.
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First, I guess you need to ascertain whether she still believes in God.

So, I’d ask? Where do your good actions come from? You still believe in God, don’t you?

If she says, “Yes.” Then I think you’ve got her. Because then you can say.

Well, did God make your atheist husband in His own image? And doesn’t that mean that your atheist husband does good because that is the nature which God placed in him?

But if she admits that she does not believe in God, then you can say.

Well, you’ve been raised a Catholic. And you know that we believe that God put His Law even in you and your atheist husband’s hearts. Otherwise, where do you even get a definition of good, if it isn’t from God, the source of all good?

You get the gist.
 
Inquirer said:
My sister, who is a fallen away Catholic, let loose this doozy when commenting on the good her atheist husband does -

“At least when he does anything good, I know it comes from his heart and not because some religion tells him to do it or because he’s trying to avoid hell”

Implying, simply, that any good action from a Christian is tainted with selfishness or predicated on avoiding hell.

How would one counter that line of reasoning?
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Not really, people can have all sorts of self-serving reasons to do things and avoiding hell is just one of many on a list.

So no, she doesn’t know that.

Also - at least in my experience - atheists are lot more hung up on hell than the average Catholic.
 
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