Help needed with true Catholic Teaching on "Family Planning"

[kristacecilia]

Thank you kage_ar for answering my question. You have explained the difference.

Corki…I figured there were more than was speaking up. So what you are saying is…that since my tubes are tied, and for medical purposes because of possible death, I needed to not have my tubes tied and refrain from sex with my husband up until the point that I was in menopause?? Again, I don’t think that is what 1 Corinthians 7 teaches. Just my 2 cents.

Mommyofrosebuds…keep your head up! You are welcome.

Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control

No, what we are saying is that it is allowable for couples to use periodic abstinance (mutually consenting to avoid sex for a time, using prayer to discern when to come back together- just like St. Paul said) to avoid or postpone a pregnancy. In your situation NFP would have been both alloweable and encouraged. If there were a legitimate medical reason for a hysterectomy, that would have been morally licit as well.

Sterilization is never morally licit. Contraception is never morally licit. St. Paul did not say, “Sure, have sex. Have lots of sex. As much as you want. You don’t have to get pregnant all the time. There are ways of making sure that doesn’t happen. Go right ahead and do that. Whatever makes you happy.”

 

[kage_ar]

oh so were only designed to have babies. so what about the women who can at all thats just the way they are. and if we are only to just get pregnant and have babies then why you nfp at all why not just have them till you physically cant give birth. if that is what we are suppose to do then everyone using nfp is not following Gods plan for us women

You might want to slow down and read what Krista said. She said that God designed our bodies to have fertile and non-fertile times.

Nowhere did she say that women are “only designed to have babies”. You come across as very defensive - please, read slowly what is answered. There are some smart and caring people here.

 

[MOMMYOFROSEBUDS]

The passage in 1 Cor 7

"
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control. "

Teaches us that there should be mutual consent, that is - one spouse does not make a unilateral decision. They decide together that it is best to abstain.

There is no guideline on what “a time” means, a time could be an hour or a day or a week or a year or a decade.

It is amazing how close to each other and to God that my husband and I have come during long periods of mutually agreed on abstention.

you may not be having sex but men are all built the same and they love sex so he is probably releving himself somehow

 

[kristacecilia]

so i have 6 kids and am being selfish because i cant afford or handle anymore thats being selfish, then so if you just keep on having babies till you die then your considered unselfish?

Don’t put words in my mouth, please. I said that I was trying to illustrate the idea that sex without consequences (sterilized or contracepted sex) is selfish. God didn’t make sex just for our pleasure. He also made it for reproduction.

Not that it always has to end in a pregnancy- just that we can’t do anything that would ensure that it wouldn’t.

 

[kage_ar]

you may not be having sex but men are all built the same and they love sex so he is probably releving himself somehow

This is way out of line. There are many strong practicing Catholic men who do not see the number one thing in life as sex. Those who practice NFP grow in Faith and the grace of God.

 

[kristacecilia]

oh so were only designed to have babies. so what about the women who can at all thats just the way they are. and if we are only to just get pregnant and have babies then why you nfp at all why not just have them till you physically cant give birth. if that is what we are suppose to do then everyone using nfp is not following Gods plan for us women

Again, please don’t put words in my mouth.

I said God designed womens bodies to have periods, to get pregnant, to be fertile. To have fertile times and not fertile times.

We are all designed the same way- it was in God’s design for a woman’s body. Not all women are supposed to have babies- like nuns or single women, but we all have the potential for it.

I was merely discussing how we are naturally designed.

 

[Em_in_FL]

oh so were only designed to have babies. so what about the women who can at all thats just the way they are. and if we are only to just get pregnant and have babies then why you nfp at all why not just have them till you physically cant give birth. if that is what we are suppose to do then everyone using nfp is not following Gods plan for us women

:doh2:
You aren’t really reading these posts before you respond, are you?
Please read more carefully before you respond defensively.

The church does not teach that you have to have as many babies as physically possible… please go read the catechism… especially the section on this link… the WHOLE thing, top to bottom… and study it…
THIS is what the church teaches.

 

[agapewolf]

you may not be having sex but men are all built the same and they love sex so he is probably releving himself somehow

This is extremely offensive. You are getting so mad at your perception of people assuming things about you, but you saying this about someone’s husband is disgusting and insulting.

I know many many men who have self control and are chaste. Within and without a marriage.

Your insulting comments are not welcome.

 

[MomaMary8]

im not trying to get someone to tell me abc is okay its just that with all i know about nfp and after putting my faith and time in it for over 8 years and getting failed by it each time, it gets very frustrating and i just cant keep going on like this. i will end up with 12 or more kids im only 29 now. im sorry to the people who think that i am against nfp, im not i just dont thinks that it works successfully for every single person. people say they know couple who have used it successfully for many years but you dont know everyone.

The funny thing is, you can’t predict the future. This is where trust in the Lord comes in! I too had 5 kids at the age of 29, I’m now 39 and only have 8. Did I ever think I would have this many children?? Not at the beginning! I even had fears of 12 kids (or more) when I had just a few (4 or 5). One child at a time, My Lord opened my heart to new life. I gave him my fears (that society created in me.) Now I am one of those radicals that chooses not to even use NFP, until now. Now I am upset that I might not have 12!! I secretly wish I could have twins, because 8 is NOT enough for me (In another thread you can read about my breast cancer risk. My dr has recommended mamograms every 6 mo beginning after I am done nursing. That means no more babies if I want to go with the doctor’s recommendations. Will this be a struggle for me and DH…very much so! But it is the cross I am willing to carry.)

Not every woman’s cycle is easy to read or is regular. ABC is much simpler. But God didn’t promise Adam and Eve life would be easy outside of the Garden. God did not promise us an easy life. We each have struggles, but if we offer them up and join them with Christ’s suffering, we can turn our struggles into Glory for our Lord. It is easy to see the couple with only 3 kids and think they have it easy, but until you walk in their shoes, I would not be so quick to assume that. It is easy to think all families are using BC, especially given the society we are living in. It is more charitable (and better for your soul) to assume their family size is just right in God’s eyes.

You also have to remember, you are 29, many women begin menopause in their 30’s. Your fertility is slowing down, even if you don’t realize it. I also assumed that after 6 healthy pg’s I would continue to carry each pregnancy (child) to term. How awfully wrong I was! I lost my 7th child, so I really have 9 kids, but only 8 on earth. I thought I knew before my loss but, since my loss I understand so much more, what a gift each and every child is!!

If you’d like to PM me, feel free. I am a simple mom of 8, I stay at home with them and keep our tiny house as organized as possible. You can rail against the trials that you have in life, or you can offer your suffering up to our Lord. Pray to St. Simon. He helped carry our Lord’s cross, and will help you to carry your heavy burden.

 

[MOMMYOFROSEBUDS]

This is way out of line. There are many strong practicing Catholic men who do not see the number one thing in life as sex. Those who practice NFP grow in Faith and the grace of God.

im sorry i just dont see how any man can go for extended periods of time with out being with his wife. i know my husband couldnt not because he isnt close to God or that he doesnt pray we do alot of that and we are very close to God im just saying that it is incredabley Hard

 

[kristacecilia]

you may not be having sex but men are all built the same and they love sex so he is probably releving himself somehow

How dare you insult her husband by saying that he “must be masterbating” if they aren’t having sex.

There are plenty of faithful, Catholic men whose lives don’t revolve around sex and who willingly sacrifice their desires for the sake of their wives and their families.

Masterbation is objectively sinful. Implying that someone’s husband is sinning to her face is insulting.

 

[MomaMary8]

im sorry i just dont see how any man can go for extended periods of time with out being with his wife. i know my husband couldnt not because he isnt close to God or that he doesnt pray we do alot of that and we are very close to God im just saying that it is incredabley Hard

With the true love our Church advocates, I man will not USE his wife to “release” his urges. I man should love his wife…with or with out sex.

 

[kage_ar]

im sorry i just dont see how any man can go for extended periods of time with out being with his wife. i know my husband couldnt not because he isnt close to God or that he doesnt pray we do alot of that and we are very close to God im just saying that it is incredabley Hard

You may be getting to the root of your problem. NFP “under your own strength” would be something we would find impossible. Without an intimate relationship with God - I don’t even want to THINK about that. It is more than prayer, it is a husband who is willing to love his wife and lay down his life for her (as Scripture tells us).

Would he consider joining a men’s group at your Parish? Maybe he would be interested in e5men.org/ - a group devoted to men sacrificing and praying for their wives.

Meeting with a teaching couple from CCLI might be a huge help, so he can speak man-to-man with other men who practice NFP?

 

[AeroChunky]

In order to shine some light:

The poster quoted above is not Catholic and does not correctly represent Catholic Church teaching.

One always has to be cautious aobut advice on Church teaching you receive from a discussion forum. It is really crazy to take advice on the Catholic Church from non-Catholics.

How am I mis-representing the Catholic rules in this?
I said:

…it’s nfp or no sex. That’s the catholic’s teachings and there are no solutions if you are a faithfull Catholic, unfortunately.

If you don’t want more kids as a Catholic, you can either stop having sex, or use NFP.

Right?

 

[AeroChunky]

In some cases, it IS very hard to read the signs of fertility properly because of other conditions, environmental factors or similar. I gave a link to a catholic association of medical doctors who offers help for such situations. Rather more helpful, I think, than just a dismissive, snide jab at catholicism.

but if she’s already doing it right, then there is no other solution that the church can offer.

That was my point.

I was never trying to be sarcastic to the OP, or jabbing at Catholocism, just wanting to put it plainly, that the options are very limited.

 

[Rico_S]

but if she’s already doing it right, then there is no other solution that the church can offer.

That was my point.

I was never trying to be sarcastic to the OP, or jabbing at Catholocism, just wanting to put it plainly, that the options are very limited.

Aerochuncky is correct. Many may not like that he didn’t sugar coat his response, but rosebudmommy’s only alternatives are abstinence or NFP (which hasn’t worked for her for whatever reason). How is this not accurate Church teaching?

There are some other comments in this thread however that are simply not in line with Chuch teachings, but for some reason get a pass.

 

[rolltidefan]

Okay…I think this thread has personally gotten into personal attacks on both sides.

mommyofrosebuds…My advice to you is…if you are going to remain practicing Catholic and especially come here for advice, just be prepared that most of the time, this is what you are going to get. I think if this is for sure what the Catholic church teaches and that is what you want to be, then you should strive to do that. However, I woud first pray to God and see if you can get some peace that way and follow his guidance first and foremost. I think you are amazing and it is a very demanding job to just have 6. I have 2 and that is all I want and thank God I don’t have to feel guilty about my tubes being tied for whatever reason because that is not what my religion teaches and so we are allowed. However, I think it is also no matter what church you attend, something you need to take up with God. Most all of us know here what the Catholic church teaches on it and if you are going to be in the church and I am assuming active, I guess you can say, you know the rules. Not saying I agree with them, because obviously I don’t. I mean, I am here with my tubes tied because of a major medical issure and people are telling me that is wrong. Of course, I don’t believe them, but I am also not Catholic, so I think that is harder step for you to make. I think most of the people here are giving you good advice based on their church beliefs and if they believe that, then they are advising you correctly. Like I said though, first of all just pray about it. No need to keep getting upset about it or even attacking on here. If coming here gets you that upset, then you might want to think about avoiding this place for a while or avoid these type threads, because this is mostly what you get. Again, I will be praying for you and your family. I hope it all works out for you.

AeroChunky…I have never saw you on here before. Those type comments are quite normal here to the protestants However, there are still a lot of good people here that truly love God. You just have to remember like I do. I am coming here as a protestant to a catholic board, so I am in their territory. But in the end we all just really want to serve God. God Bless You!

 

[Rico_S]

Rosebudmommy:

While I do think you are not really listening to the posters here, and I do think you are quite hostile and defensive, I can completely sympathize with your position and I know the frustration you feel is quite real.

I would like to point out that the posts regarding being open to pregnancy by others are really off topic. You believe that you have just reasons for not wanting to become pregnant…THIS IS OK. You do not have to be open to having more children and this is simply fine by Church Teaching. Be at peace that you can be completely justified in not wanting more children right now (or ever for that matter). That is between God, you and your husband.

–Rico

 

[Friend_forever]

Invite them to talk to someone in the diocese family counseling ministry or to a priest, bot not any priest, it has to be someone that has known them personally for some time.

 

[motherofsix]

First I must admit that I skipped several posts, it was taking forever to read them.

momofrosebuds, I truly hope you find peace with your problem. You will be in my prayers.

I am PG with #7 and have done “my own” form of NFP. Although I have gotten PG on it, it was my own fault and hubby and I laughed the next day. We had a little too much to drink one night and threw the whole “are you ovulating” question out hte window for good wholesome lovin! Baby #5. Number #7 came after my hubby made his Cursillo. He was gone for days and I just wanted him!

One thing I can relate to is income. I am very lucky that I do not work. My husband builds houses so I was able to build a large house for a fraction of the cost. However, he does not make a killing, but we get by. We do not go to the movies. That is somethingwe have learned to do without, as well as other things.

Just remember to keep calm, I would hope that most of the people here are really trying to help and not make you angry.

a little thing I would like to share:
“The most important person on earth is a mother. She cannot claim the honor of having built
Notre Dame Cathedral. She need not. She has built something more magnificent than any cathedral - a
dwelling for an immortal soul. The tiny perfection of her baby’s body.
The angels have not been blessed with such a grace. They cannot share in God’s creative
miracle to bring new saints to heaven. Only a human mother can.
Mothers are closer to God the creator than any other creature. God joins forces with mothers
in performing this act of creation . . . What on God’s good earth is more glorious than this: TO BE A
MOTHER”
By Joseph Cardinal Mindszenty