Help Needed

  • Thread starter Thread starter psychiatrist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

psychiatrist

Guest
I’m engaged in a debate on another board. The debate started regarding salvation for people who have never heard of Jesus. I posted the Church’s stance: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).”

One of the anti-Catholics on the board then posted that the CCC is unbliblical. I responded that nothing the CCC teaches is un-Biblical, since Catholics wrote the Bible.

Someone then posted, in response to CCC 847/848:

"Where, Biblically, is this found?

Does this override the whole, “no man comes to the Father but through me” statement, or does CCC847/848 imply that God has a “side door” that others who were “in the dark” can bypass Jesus and still get into Heaven?"

I need help postulating a response to that last statement. Thanks in advance!
 
I’m engaged in a debate on another board. The debate started regarding salvation for people who have never heard of Jesus. I posted the Church’s stance: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).”

One of the anti-Catholics on the board then posted that the CCC is unbliblical. I responded that nothing the CCC teaches is un-Biblical, since Catholics wrote the Bible.

Someone then posted, in response to CCC 847/848:

"Where, Biblically, is this found?

Does this override the whole, “no man comes to the Father but through me” statement, or does CCC847/848 imply that God has a “side door” that others who were “in the dark” can bypass Jesus and still get into Heaven?"

I need help postulating a response to that last statement. Thanks in advance!
God is sovereign, and can save whom He wills. He is not bound by anything. If God chooses to save a person who has never heard of Jesus but sincerely seeks Him, who are we mere mortals to say He can’t? I would call that presumptive, in the least. God has revealed to us what He wants us to know, but we don’t know everything God does, nor can we claim to have a full understanding of His ways. He has said that His ways are not ours.

Jesus is not bypassed in such a case. He died for all men, and salvation is through Him only. They are still saved through Christ, whether they know it or not. There is no other way.
 
God is sovereign, and can save whom He wills. He is not bound by anything. If God chooses to save a person who has never heard of Jesus but sincerely seeks Him, who are we mere mortals to say He can’t? I would call that presumptive, in the least. God has revealed to us what He wants us to know, but we don’t know everything God does, nor can we claim to have a full understanding of His ways. He has said that His ways are not ours.

Jesus is not bypassed in such a case. He died for all men, and salvation is through Him only. They are still saved through Christ, whether they know it or not. There is no other way.
I want to tell you that this is a very sound answer. Not only that, but more charitable than the one that popped into my head when I first read the thread.
My response would have been as follows:

What is the biblical basis to use the bible as the only means to know or understand God?
 
Everyone who enters heaven will enter ONLY thru Jesus.
But, that does not mean they had to know that prior to death. The Scripture passage (“No man comes to the Father but through Me”) says nothing about what they had to know and believe.
It’s only my personal thought, but I have a feeling that Jesus may present Himself just prior to death (to those who have not knowingly rejected God/goodness/etc.). Anyone who’s heart has been directed to seeking God, loving his neighbor, will bond and choose Jesus instantly. Now, that’s just my speculation and won’t carry much weight in a debate. So ------
  1. Here are some Scripture passages that have application:
    ***Matt. 7:21 ***"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 25:33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 25:34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 25:38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 25:39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 25:40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’
(a) I would point out that no mention is made in these passages as to whether the person believed in Jesus, was baptized, and/or accepted Him as God and Savior.
b) I would ask how they interpret “nations”. There are some who interpret it as referring to non-Christians. Catholicism doesn’t, but if their denomination does that ought to answer their objection right away.

***Romans 2:26 ***So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 2:27 Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.
(Paul is here speaking about the regulations of the Old Covenant Law. However, the same general principle can be applied to the New Covenant. the covenant may have changed, but the general principle still holds.)
  1. I would ask them if they therefore hold that anyone (baby to adult) who dies without making a profession of faith in Jesus, and/or being baptized, automatically is not saved but spends eternity in hell.
    Most Protestants hold that position believe that the “mercy of God” comes into play in regards to a baby or young child’s death. I would ask them for Scripture passages that support that position. Also, for Scripture passages which deny that same mercy could not also apply to those who, thru no fault of their own, do not know about Jesus.
 
Jesus is not bypassed in such a case. He died for all men, and salvation is through Him only. They are still saved through Christ, whether they know it or not. There is no other way
This is an accurate understanding of Catholic teaching…

here’s a verse which your opponents in the debate will interpret differently than you, but here it is, nevertheless:

Acts 10: 34,35: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him…”
 
The story of the centurion with the servant who was taken ill is a good case study for salvation. 🙂 When our Lord approaches the house of the soldier to heal the servant, the centurion says that Jesus has no need to come physically, for He could heal the servant at any time, anywhere. The centurion is said, by our Lord, to have more faith in him than all of Israel! Should we wonder that the God of Israel should see more salvation in a pagan gentile than in monotheist Jews?

God gives the grace for each man to choose whether he is just. All societies on Earth have at least had some form of the four cardinal virtues: justice, temperance, prudence, and fortitude. Wherever you go across the globe, you see these things across history. I think that, prior to the worldwide spread of the Gospel from the eastern Mediterranean, God judged those who died based on how well they adhered to the natural moral law which is “written in every man’s heart”. Once Jesus’ Holy Name came to them, though, this invincible ignorance on the part of distant pagans was removed. 🙂

God is sensible… we often forget that He invented everything we consider good, out of mere nothingness. He made humour, and good sense, so… why not?
 
“No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

This statement doesn’t say that a person has to be Christian to come to the Father. Look at it this way: The Dean of Admissions of a university can correctly say “No one comes to this university except through me.” It doesn’t mean the applicant has to know the dean, or even know who the dean is. It simply means that the dean will make the decision as to whether or not the applicant will be admitted. He will look at the applicant’s record, then decide. In much the same way, Christ can look at where a person’s heart is, determine whether or not he has really tried to live in accordance with Christ’s teachings (whether he’s ever heard of them or not), and then decide whether or not to accept the person to come to the Father.

Xuan
 
I want to tell you that this is a very sound answer. Not only that, but more charitable than the one that popped into my head when I first read the thread.
My response would have been as follows:

What is the biblical basis to use the bible as the only means to know or understand God?
Typical red herring to avoid truth of God’s word. **“It is Written…” ** demonstrates that Jesus himself gave Scripture the ultimate authority over other sources of authority.

Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

You may want to take the time to outline the book of Romans, so you will understand how Paul is building his arguments to come to the conclusion “all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God”.

As for those in other nations that are not exposed to the gospel, God has been known to speak in dreams and visions even today.
 
Everyone who enters heaven will enter ONLY thru Jesus.
But, that does not mean they had to know that prior to death. The Scripture passage (“No man comes to the Father but through Me”) says nothing about what they had to know and believe.
It’s only my personal thought, but I have a feeling that Jesus may present Himself just prior to death (to those who have not knowingly rejected God/goodness/etc.). Anyone who’s heart has been directed to seeking God, loving his neighbor, will bond and choose Jesus instantly. Now, that’s just my speculation and won’t carry much weight in a debate. So ------
  1. Here are some Scripture passages that have application:
    ***Matt. 7:21 ***"***Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ***
    Matt. 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 25:33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 25:34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 25:38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 25:39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 25:40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’
    (a) I would point out that no mention is made in these passages as to whether the person believed in Jesus, was baptized, and/or accepted Him as God and Savior.
    b) I would ask how they interpret “nations”. There are some who interpret it as referring to non-Christians. Catholicism doesn’t, but if their denomination does that ought to answer their objection right away.
***Romans 2:26 ***So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 2:27 Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.
(Paul is here speaking about the regulations of the Old Covenant Law. However, the same general principle can be applied to the New Covenant. the covenant may have changed, but the general principle still holds.)
  1. I would ask them if they therefore hold that anyone (baby to adult) who dies without making a profession of faith in Jesus, and/or being baptized, automatically is not saved but spends eternity in hell.
    Most Protestants hold that position believe that the “mercy of God” comes into play in regards to a baby or young child’s death. I would ask them for Scripture passages that support that position. Also, for Scripture passages which deny that same mercy could not also apply to those who, thru no fault of their own, do not know about Jesus.
Again context, and following how Paul builds his arguments to the conclusion overrides proof texting and opinions.

Matthew 7:21-24 (Contemporary English Version)
21Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in. 22On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, “We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles.” 23But I will tell them, “I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!” 24Anyone who hears and obeys these teachings of mine is like a wise person who built a house on solid rock.

Not even everyone who calls themselve a Christian is going to heaven. 😉 We all can only lean on Jesus.
 
This is an accurate understanding of Catholic teaching…

here’s a verse which your opponents in the debate will interpret differently than you, but here it is, nevertheless:

Acts 10: 34,35: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him…”
Again read the full context, he had to repent and come to Jesus for entrance.
Later, in Acts it plainly says that in the past God winked at ignorance, but Now one must call on Jesus for salvation.
 
“No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

This statement doesn’t say that a person has to be Christian to come to the Father. Look at it this way: The Dean of Admissions of a university can correctly say “No one comes to this university except through me.” It doesn’t mean the applicant has to know the dean, or even know who the dean is. It simply means that the dean will make the decision as to whether or not the applicant will be admitted. He will look at the applicant’s record, then decide. In much the same way, Christ can look at where a person’s heart is, determine whether or not he has really tried to live in accordance with Christ’s teachings (whether he’s ever heard of them or not), and then decide whether or not to accept the person to come to the Father.

Xuan
Matthew 7:21-24 (King James Version)

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them,** I never knew you**: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

But, with Jesus one must Know Him, thus your dean idea fall flat.

Even to backslidden Christians Jesus says,

Rev 3:20 NLV**
"Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.**

Again, very personal.
 
Matthew 7:21-24 (King James Version)

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them,** I never knew you**: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

But, with Jesus one must Know Him, thus your dean idea fall flat.

Even to backslidden Christians Jesus says,

Rev 3:20 NLV**
"Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.**

Again, very personal.
These verses do not prove that Jesus is impotent to read the heart of a person who did not heareth his sayings or lived before his time. Let alone read them in the King James or hear them read from the King James.
 
I’m engaged in a debate on another board. The debate started regarding salvation for people who have never heard of Jesus. I posted the Church’s stance: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).”

One of the anti-Catholics on the board then posted that the CCC is unbliblical. I responded that nothing the CCC teaches is un-Biblical, since Catholics wrote the Bible.

Someone then posted, in response to CCC 847/848:

"Where, Biblically, is this found?

Does this override the whole, “no man comes to the Father but through me” statement, or does CCC847/848 imply that God has a “side door” that others who were “in the dark” can bypass Jesus and still get into Heaven?"

I need help postulating a response to that last statement. Thanks in advance!
Read this…more than once.

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm
 
Typical red herring to avoid truth of God’s word. **“It is Written…” **demonstrates that Jesus himself gave Scripture the ultimate authority over other sources of authority.
Even over Himself? And was He referring to only to the Old Testament since the New Testament books hadn’t been written yet?
Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
You’ve got this backwards.

Acts 17:10-12 – Berean Rejection of Sola Scriptura

Acts 17:10-12
10As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

If one group could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).

When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealous—and rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jason’s house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the “dogs,” not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).

We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paul’s new teaching was “unbiblical.”

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they “received the word with all eagerness.” Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were “noble-minded” not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessalonians—with an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, “The Acts of the Apostles” in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a “tradition,” it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an “extension” of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian community’s reception of Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paul’s writings as equal to the “other Scriptures,” which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).

From Steve Ray’s article: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

Those who followed the doctrine of sola scriptura, the Thessalonians, rejected Paul’s oral preaching and the long awaited Messiah. Those who accepted oral teaching AND scripture, the Bereans, accepted the Gospel and the Messiah.

Additionally, although both groups searched the scriptures, they came to contradictory conclusions about the Messiah. Clearly, scripture alone is insufficient to ensure proper interpretation.
 
I’m engaged in a debate on another board. The debate started regarding salvation for people who have never heard of Jesus. I posted the Church’s stance: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).”

One of the anti-Catholics on the board then posted that the CCC is unbliblical. I responded that nothing the CCC teaches is un-Biblical, since Catholics wrote the Bible.

Someone then posted, in response to CCC 847/848:

"Where, Biblically, is this found?

Does this override the whole, “no man comes to the Father but through me” statement, or does CCC847/848 imply that God has a “side door” that others who were “in the dark” can bypass Jesus and still get into Heaven?"

I need help postulating a response to that last statement. Thanks in advance!
How will those be judged who have never heard of Christ? Paul tells us in Romans 2:14 “When Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, or perhaps excuse them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

Those who have never heard of Christ will be judged according to the natural law written on their hearts. The last line tells us when they will be judged “This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

Jesus tells us something very important. John 15:22 “If I had not come to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin”

Jesus tells us that those to whom He has not come to will not have sin. Does this mean they go straight to heaven? No, we must take all of scripture. They will be judged by the natural law. Jesus also tells us that when He does come to them , there is no excuse for sin and we will be judged accordingly if we reject Him.

Being judged by the natural law is no ticket to heaven. Man’s best chance for salvation is to have the fullness of truth. That is why the Church sent missionaires to the pagans.
 
Thanks for all the help, much appreciated.

Thought I’d share this “gem” from one of the anti-Catholic Bible-thumpers in the debate:

“I am sure there are Bible believing born again believers within the Catholic church so I don’t want to offend everyone, however, saying the catholic church and the Bible are in harmony is demonstrably false.”

Of course when I asked him to provide examples he never responded.
 
Thanks for all the help, much appreciated.

Thought I’d share this “gem” from one of the anti-Catholic Bible-thumpers in the debate:

“I am sure there are Bible believing born again believers within the Catholic church so I don’t want to offend everyone, however, saying the catholic church and the Bible are in harmony is demonstrably false.”

Of course when I asked him to provide examples he never responded.
It is a butcher of the language to claim something demonstrably false without example or evidence.

You don’t need help here. You simply need to demand that one making extrodinary claims provide the evidence for them. IMHO, a bible literalist can not give evidence for their belief in sole reliance on the scriptures for understanding.

Without knowing the context of your mulit participant discussion, it would be safe to say that you could have a basis to object to the statements made.

The first one that comes to mind is a verification that the bible interprets itself.
 
I’m engaged in a debate on another board. The debate started regarding salvation for people who have never heard of Jesus. I posted the Church’s stance: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).”

One of the anti-Catholics on the board then posted that the CCC is unbliblical. I responded that nothing the CCC teaches is un-Biblical, since Catholics wrote the Bible.

Someone then posted, in response to CCC 847/848:

"Where, Biblically, is this found?

Does this override the whole, “no man comes to the Father but through me” statement, or does CCC847/848 imply that God has a “side door” that others who were “in the dark” can bypass Jesus and still get into Heaven?"

I need help postulating a response to that last statement. Thanks in advance!
Paul,

Letter to the Romans…
14I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. 15So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
Paul points out that all are responsible and he is responsible to them.
and he then says
There will be] tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
Every soul will be held accountable and God is not partial. He is God of all. If so then those who have not heard the gospel are also responsible and he makes that point by illustrating the Old Covenant…if you were not circumcised, you were not part of the Covenant…oh yeah, not according to Paulll
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for [it is] not the hearers of the Law [who] are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
So everyone has the ability, baptized, not baptized, all are under the rule of God and responsible to God and God makes it possible because they are circumcised/baptized of the heart even if they never hear the gospel or get baptized…
 
Thanks for all the help, much appreciated.

Thought I’d share this “gem” from one of the anti-Catholic Bible-thumpers in the debate:

“I am sure there are Bible believing born again believers within the Catholic church so I don’t want to offend everyone, however, saying the catholic church and the Bible are in harmony is demonstrably false.”

Of course when I asked him to provide examples he never responded.
Here are some threads I started that you can look through concerning the Bible, the Canon
and Protestant Ecclesiology that may help…

The Problem with Protestant Ecclesiology

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=721742

Why Christians can’t read Scripture

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=609262

Blast The Canon

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=609709
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top