Help, not sure if I handled this correctly!

[celticsfan1983]

I have a roommate (we’ll call the roommate ‘roomie’) who is self described as “catholic.” Hasn’t been confirmed, just agrees with most of the teachings (I am in RCIA right now). Here’s the exchange that went down a few minutes ago. Not sure if I made a fool of myself, if I did the right thing, or whatnot, but here is the most of it.

I asked roomie if they planned on going to Mass Sunday morning.
“No,” roomie replied. “I’m going to Assembly of God with my mom.”

This was puzzling, as someone who agrees with Catholic teachings should want to go to Mass instead of another church with our brothers and sister’s in Christ. Roomie mentions it’s a family obligation, that Mom shouldn’t have to sit by herself in church, and that it doesn’t matter where you go, as long as you go.

I sorta agreed, saying that yes, it is good to go to Church, but if you’ve seen the “truth,” as I put it, that the Catholic church has, why would you shortchange yourself? If you knew exactly what someone wanted for Christmas, would you get them something different? Even though they are both gifts, you should try to get someone exactly what they want.

Then Roomie mentions something about it being more comfortable at that AG church, and that people should be comfortable in worship (my reply was, if it was all about comfort, Jesus would have died in his sleep). The argument ended with the flaws of organized religion (saying reading the bible and praying at home is better than half-heartedly going to church), and that Roomie should go where God is calling, and that I was attacking.

My reply to that? “Not attacking, just looking out for you,” a door slam and 5 minutes later, and I’m typing this to you guys.

I felt like I was on The O’Reilly Factor, trying to make point after point. I admit, I might have sounded arrogant when I said God would agree with me about going to church each week, and if they did some talking to the priest (Roomie mentioned a priest friend), the good Father would probably agree big time that Mass would be the best place to go on Sunday.

Did I act as a good spiritual brother? Or was I a Catholic snob for insisting that Roomie go to Mass instead of AG service?

 

[JPUSC]

Typical cafeteria Catholic. Seems like converts make better Catholics. Makes me laugh to read that he actually has a priest friend.

If I were in your situation, I wouldn’t really push it. It’s not your problem if you told him once and he didn’t listen. You’re not responsible for his soul and if he misses Mass, that’s his problem.

No reason to start potential conflict, especially if you’re going to be living together.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I have a roommate (we’ll call the roommate ‘roomie’) who is self described as “catholic.” Hasn’t been confirmed, just agrees with most of the teachings (I am in RCIA right now). Here’s the exchange that went down a few minutes ago. Not sure if I made a fool of myself, if I did the right thing, or whatnot, but here is the most of it.

I asked roomie if they planned on going to Mass Sunday morning.
“No,” roomie replied. “I’m going to Assembly of God with my mom.”

This was puzzling, as someone who agrees with Catholic teachings should want to go to Mass instead of another church with our brothers and sister’s in Christ. Roomie mentions it’s a family obligation, that Mom shouldn’t have to sit by herself in church, and that it doesn’t matter where you go, as long as you go.

I sorta agreed, saying that yes, it is good to go to Church, but if you’ve seen the “truth,” as I put it, that the Catholic church has, why would you shortchange yourself? If you knew exactly what someone wanted for Christmas, would you get them something different? Even though they are both gifts, you should try to get someone exactly what they want.

Then Roomie mentions something about it being more comfortable at that AG church, and that people should be comfortable in worship (my reply was, if it was all about comfort, Jesus would have died in his sleep). The argument ended with the flaws of organized religion (saying reading the bible and praying at home is better than half-heartedly going to church), and that Roomie should go where God is calling, and that I was attacking.

My reply to that? “Not attacking, just looking out for you,” a door slam and 5 minutes later, and I’m typing this to you guys.

I felt like I was on The O’Reilly Factor, trying to make point after point. I admit, I might have sounded arrogant when I said God would agree with me about going to church each week, and if they did some talking to the priest (Roomie mentioned a priest friend), the good Father would probably agree big time that Mass would be the best place to go on Sunday.

Did I act as a good spiritual brother? Or was I a Catholic snob for insisting that Roomie go to Mass instead of AG service?

Your correct, a Catholic has a serious obligation to attend a Sunday Mass. If they intended to go with family to another Community worship service, they should have attended Mass last evening. To intentionally not go to Mass for the Sunday obligation is a Mortal sin, requiring Confession before one can receive Holy Communion again.

I would find this in the Catechism and show it to them. They don’t know the Catholic faith very well and your not going to teach it to them in ten minutes.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

It seems to me you handled the whole thing poorly. Try asking them to attendent both RCIA and mass with you in support of you. Be careful about this “to &*!%l with your family” stuff whether spoken or implied. Maybe one day you will see him (or her) with mother in mass. Your journey is your journey, his journey is his journey.

 

[celticsfan1983]

Your correct, a Catholic has a serious obligation to attend a Sunday Mass. If they intended to go with family to another Community worship service, they should have attended Mass last evening. To intentionally not go to Mass for the Sunday obligation is a Mortal sin, requiring Confession before one can receive Holy Communion again.

That’s the argument: the roommate believes going on Monday afternoon is no different than going on Sunday, and since the person has never been confirmed, doesn’t take communion at all. I argue that, as a candidate, I don’t take communion, but I still go.

But you do have a point, Texasroofer. Perhaps I should have been more sensitive to family needs. But at the same time (and I said this), my family is baptist, and would love nothing more than to see me go back to that church. But faith is not a family obligation, it’s an obligation to God.

Thank you everyone for the answers. Much appreciated.

 

[SteveGC]

Your heart’s in the right place, celtic.

I’m going to refer to Roomie as a “he” for simplicity, since you didn’t state him or her…

My initial reaction was the same as JPUSC’s - typical “cafeteria Catholic”. But then you mentioned he was not confirmed, and so I think the conflict you had with him was no surprise at all. He is NOT Catholic. He may “identify” himself as Catholic, but he is misleading himself if he does. One must be properly baptized and confirmed into the Church in order to be identified as Catholic. Actually I don’t like to stop there - because I think “Catholics” who do not accept Church dogmas are no longer entitled to the identity of “Catholic”. By the way, I obviously also believe that true Catholics are the truest “Christians” as well, in the fullest sense of that term. But, I digress…

If you hope to continue reaching out to him, my advice would be to completely change your thinking about who in fact you’re talking to - not a Catholic, rather simply a person on a journey of faith who has yet to set out on any discernible path.

Don’t feel too bad about how all that went down today. Just realize that you’re not talking to a Catholic, and I think you’ll be able to adjust the way you communicate with him.

In Christ,
SteveGC

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Catholic means universal. All Jesus’ followers are catholic is some form of the word. To be in communion with the Church requires obedience to the Church (not men of the church).

 

[Ridgerunner]

There’s more to this, but you don’t know what it is. If roomie is as indifferent as he/she maintained, there would not have been a door slam. I say you did the right thing. It’s never wrong to tell the truth, if it’s not done in a deliberately and unnecessarily offensive way. You touched some sore spot in roomie’s conscience and it may be well, in the long run, that you did.

 

[SteveGC]

Catholic means universal. All Jesus’ followers are catholic is some form of the word. To be in communion with the Church requires obedience to the Church (not men of the church).

Not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not, Roofer. But I do agree with your comment, to an extent. If you take the literal context of the word “catholic”, it signifies the new covenant that God makes universally to ALL people He created. He offers the gift of salvation to ALL, and of course, we must accept, participate, and obey throughout our entire lives in order to receive that gift. In that sense, EVERYONE is “catholic”, not just followers’ of Jesus. But this is severely incomplete. There is something much more to it…

The first time the word “catholic” is on historical record, it signifies The Church that Christ founded (it was St. Ignatius on his way to martyrdom). The word came to signify the actual Church, and shortly thereafter, its members - the faithful that followed Christ. The purest, truest way in which God makes his covenantal gift available to people is through His Church, which has evolved through the ages into what is today the Catholic Church seated in Rome. And so, in that sense, not everyone is Catholic - only those as I have described.

And I agree that obedience is to the Church (which Christ founded), and not to man. Not sure what your point is, but men ARE utilized by Christ through His Church to shepherd His people in matters of faith and morals. In that sense, Catholics are obedient to men of The Church, but only as they are infallibly guided by Christ.

SteveGC

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I think you’ll find the Church teachs and Canon Law (204) states the roomie is catholic.

 

[SteveGC]

Hmmmm.

Ok Roofer. I think this is just a matter of semantics. Yes, Canon Law 204 decrees that all who are simply baptized are technically considered “in full communion” with the Catholic Church. But there is a difference between “being in full communion” and “being joined” to the Catholic Church. Read Canon 206.

I suppose what I meant is that the Roomie is not “joined” to the Catholic Church, and therefore would not technically be titled a “Catholic”. They are not entitled to other sacraments (save a valid marriage), especially no Eucharist, no Reconcilliation. They have not been officially catechized on the teaching of The Church, etc etc.

Again, the spirit of my message to the OP is that Roomie cannot be addressed as if he/she is “really” a Catholic Christian. Roomie only can “identify” himself as catholic in the sense of being baptized and in full communion with Mother Church. I would also wager that Roomie has no idea that he/she is “in full communion”, because being in full communion in the Canon 204 sense does not imply that the baptized person understands, nor agrees with that communion. The Church simply states (truthfully) that the baptized person IS IN FACT in full communion - for there is no true communion with God for any of us if The Church was not with us, dispensing God’s grace to us. This was His plan for us through Christ.

Respectfully,

SteveGC

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… Yes, Canon Law 204 decrees that all who are simply baptized are technically considered “in full communion” with the Catholic Church. But there is a difference between “being in full communion” and “being joined” to the Catholic Church. Read Canon 206…

Did you mean 205? Baptism links one to the Church. Full communion is the result of faith and works. There are many in the same situation as roomie. Many in that group eventually return to the church. It is important to always have the door open to all people. Roomie should have attended catechism about age 7 which is not an age in which he controlled those decisions. Roomie can attend RCIA just as anyone else.

206 is about Catechumens which are not trinitrain baptized

 

[harrisunt]

“If it was about comfort Jesus would have died in his sleep”…

Brilliant!

You may not have handled it perfectly but you did what you thought was right. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it.

 

[SteveGC]

Did you mean 205? Baptism links one to the Church. Full communion is the result of faith and works. There are many in the same situation as roomie. Many in that group eventually return to the church. It is important to always have the door open to all people. Roomie should have attended catechism about age 7 which is not an age in which he controlled those decisions. Roomie can attend RCIA just as anyone else.

206 is about Catechumens which are not trinitrain baptized

Roofer, my mistake. You are correct. 206 speaks specifically about the state of unbaptized catechumens and how The Church views them.

204 and 205 are about trinitarian baptized people, we agree on that still.

The point I’m making is that 204 and 205 apply to every single person on this planet who ever was trinitarian baptized, in any church, in any denomination, in the woods, in a closet, wherever. As such, the Catholic Church proclaims that those people, whether they know it or not, like it or not, believe it or not, are united in a mysterious way to Her, but are NOT joined to Her through initiation. Therefore, within the modern way in which we identify a “Catholic” who is joined to the Church through initiation, and who is able to partake of all sacraments, Roomie is NOT a Catholic. Can you see my point?

To clarify, let’s lastly take a look at the Catechism, specifically 1271 and 1275.

**The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians **

*1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82 *

*1275 **Christian initiation [into the Catholic Church] **is accomplished by three sacraments together: Baptism which is the beginning of new life; Confirmation which is its strengthening; and the Eucharist which nourishes the disciple with Christ’s Body and Blood for his transformation in Christ. *

It is under this guidance that I proclaim to the OP that Roomie is NOT Catholic. I do not proclaim that Roomie is not mysteriously unified to The Church, but the title “Catholic” is a reserved title, due only to those who undergo initiation as described above. The point is merely this…celtic need not approach Roomie as if he is obligated to go to Mass, as if he is an initiated "Catholic, because he is not. Celtic can simply relate to Roomie in a way that any of us would relate to any person struggling to find their way through their Christian faith.

You and I got caught up in this “what label can we put on Roomie” debate. I don’t really think it’s important, to tell you the truth. Bottom line is that there indeed is a difference between being baptized and being a baptized “Catholic”.

Hope you take this as charitably as I intended it to be.

Peace be with you,

SteveGC

 

[Texas_Roofer]

1213
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. **Through Baptism **we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are **incorporated into the Church **and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and in the word."5

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.shtml#art1

Roomie is catholic unless he writes the Bishop or preforms a few other extreme actions to renounce catholism.

 

[celticsfan1983]

Thank you again for the responses. I feel a little better today, and I realized that I need to have a better spirit of love about all of this, instead of a CNN debate.

Roomie was not raised Catholic, so yes, they can identify themselves as agreeing (said “for the most part,” a partial belief system i detest, but that’s another thread) with the church, but the poster was right…technically not a catholic.

For the record, roomie is a she. I left the gender out because i didn’t want to start a thread with any “controversy” (although, since things are strictly plutonic, there is no sin).

God bless you all.

 

[SteveGC]

To Roofer, and all.

For the record…

When I’m wrong, I’m wrong. I must retract my remarks that suggested that celtic’s Roomie is not Catholic. Indeed, as Roofer says, it is by roomie’s Catholic baptism that she IS “Catholic”, and is bound to the precepts of The Church (i.e. should be at Mass Sundays and Holy Days, etc). Confirmation is not a prerequisite if you’re baptized in the CC. I humbly apologize for my error.

And so, celtic, roomie IS bound by ecclesiastical law to attend Mass on Sunday’s, and your exhortation to her to do so is quite in line, and of course should be done charitably. Sorry I took up so much time and space on your thread debating an issue I was ultimately mistaken on.

To Roofer, no hard feelings. Thanks for forcing me to dig back into Canon Law and the CCC to correct myself. This has been a significant learning experience for me.

SteveGC

 

[Lifeisamazing]

I have a roommate (we’ll call the roommate ‘roomie’) who is self described as “catholic.” Hasn’t been confirmed, just agrees with most of the teachings (I am in RCIA right now). Here’s the exchange that went down a few minutes ago. Not sure if I made a fool of myself, if I did the right thing, or whatnot, but here is the most of it.

I asked roomie if they planned on going to Mass Sunday morning.
“No,” roomie replied. “I’m going to Assembly of God with my mom.”

This was puzzling, as someone who agrees with Catholic teachings should want to go to Mass instead of another church with our brothers and sister’s in Christ. Roomie mentions it’s a family obligation, that Mom shouldn’t have to sit by herself in church, and that it doesn’t matter where you go, as long as you go.

I sorta agreed, saying that yes, it is good to go to Church, but if you’ve seen the “truth,” as I put it, that the Catholic church has, why would you shortchange yourself? If you knew exactly what someone wanted for Christmas, would you get them something different? Even though they are both gifts, you should try to get someone exactly what they want.

Then Roomie mentions something about it being more comfortable at that AG church, and that people should be comfortable in worship (my reply was, if it was all about comfort, Jesus would have died in his sleep). The argument ended with the flaws of organized religion (saying reading the bible and praying at home is better than half-heartedly going to church), and that Roomie should go where God is calling, and that I was attacking.

My reply to that? “Not attacking, just looking out for you,” a door slam and 5 minutes later, and I’m typing this to you guys.

I felt like I was on The O’Reilly Factor, trying to make point after point. I admit, I might have sounded arrogant when I said God would agree with me about going to church each week, and if they did some talking to the priest (Roomie mentioned a priest friend), the good Father would probably agree big time that Mass would be the best place to go on Sunday.

Did I act as a good spiritual brother? Or was I a Catholic snob for insisting that Roomie go to Mass instead of AG service?

I would have suggested he think about attending church with me that day, while praising that he is being so thoughtful to his mom as well. Going to church with others is fine, as long as we remember to fulfill our own spiritual obligations as Catholics (and it sounds like that was your thought as well).

He says he doesn’t feel as comfortable in the Catholic Church? Don’t take the offense when someone shares something like that with you. View it as an opportunity. Say, “I didn’t know you felt that way. What makes you feel comfortable at AG? What makes you feel uncomfortable at mass?” Then just listen and then say, “Please let me know if I can do anything to make you feel more comfortable. Mass is important.”

So what happened? I think maybe your intentions were good, but your delivery was not very compassionate and may have sounded judgemental. We all need to remember that others are on a spiritual journey of their own and they may be at a different place in that journey. Once it turns from a supportive discussion to a defensive argument- you know you’ve turned the corner and need to stop.