Help on understanding purgatory

[Linkthemissing]

:waveeace be with you brothers and sisters!

Im a Baptist who is becoming Catholic, but before I join the RCIA I have a few big question on my mind.

1. what is purgatory?
2. is purgatory in the bible?
3. and how can I overcome this hurdle of theology and accept what the chuch teaches (Its hard to do when you come from a anti-catholic background.)

Thank you to anyone who posts!

 

[TomD123]

:waveeace be with you brothers and sisters!

Im a Baptist who is becoming Catholic, but before I join the RCIA I have a few big question on my mind.

1. what is purgatory?
   **Purgatory is a place or spiritual state of being after one dies in the state of grace, that is, they have repented of all of their mortal sins if they had any, but are not perfect. It is a place of cleansing the soul. Purgatory is necessary because in heaven we must be perfect and pure. God is perfectly holy and therefore anyone in his presence must be free from all attachment to sin. Purgatory gets rid of our attachments to sin. It is a place that involves suffering so that we can be perfect and focused on God. **
2. is purgatory in the bible?
   Purgatory is not directly in the Bible, however, it is implied. For example, we learn that nothing unclean can enter heaven in Revelation 21. Purgatory is also implied in the second book of Macabees (not in protestant Bibles) because it states that it is good to pray for the dead, therefore, there must be a place that is not hell of heaven: In heaven we are fine and in hell there is no hope.
3. and how can I overcome this hurdle of theology and accept what the chuch teaches (Its hard to do when you come from a anti-catholic background.)
   The best way to overcome this hurdle is to try to reason out why there is a purgatory. It seems like in our world most people have not fully rejected God and deserve eternal suffering, however, it also seems like most people are no where near as holy as they should be. Therefore, there must be a stage that the merciful God allows souls who want to be holy but have not reached perfection yet to become perfect. Purgatory is this place.
   Thank you to anyone who posts!

Hope these answers help

 

[Spencerian]

:waveeace be with you brothers and sisters!

Im a Baptist who is becoming Catholic, but before I join the RCIA I have a few big question on my mind.

1. what is purgatory?
2. is purgatory in the bible?
3. and how can I overcome this hurdle of theology and accept what the chuch teaches (Its hard to do when you come from a anti-catholic background.)

Thank you to anyone who posts!

Welcome!

If you haven’t already, see this Catholic Answers tract on purgatory, which includes Scriptural support from St. Paul and others.

As the tract will say, purgatory (as described by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:15) is a state where the dead who die in God’s favor are cleaned of their inclinations for sin as well as the effects of sins confessed. It’s like a child that spills a glass of water. The mom says “I forgive you”, but there is still a mess that must be cleaned up.

Purgatory is a very good thing. You are on your way to heaven; you’re just getting your soul in its finery on the front porch before meeting the Lord. This is also supported in Revelations 21:27 (nothing unclean will enter heaven).

Like the word “Trinity”, don’t get hung up that the word “purgatory” isn’t in the Bible. Both concepts are there. God bless on your exploration.

 

[InLight247]

1. Purgatory is a place of purification.

Do you think as long as a person believes in Jesus, has been baptized, he can directly get into heaven regardless what he does?
If heaven can be entered as long as we believe in Jesus who died for us, then this belief and baptism can serve as a license of doing evil. In other words, as long as we believe in Jesus and get ourselves baptized, we obtain a license of doing whatever we like. We can commit adultery, murder, stealing, or whatever, we still can directly get into heaven. Does this make sense? No, that is what purgatory is for. Even if we don’t commit any serious sin, venial sins or imperfection still have to be cleansed before entering heaven. Nothing impure can be with the Pure.

1. 2Maccabees 12:40 -42 and 1 Cor 3:12-15 talk about Purgatory.
2. Faith, you must have faith to believe the Church’s teaching. Pray to the Holy Spirit to help you believe.

God bless you.

 

[the_hazel_nut]

:waveeace be with you brothers and sisters!

Im a Baptist who is becoming Catholic, but before I join the RCIA I have a few big question on my mind.

1. what is purgatory?
2. is purgatory in the bible?
3. and how can I overcome this hurdle of theology and accept what the chuch teaches (Its hard to do when you come from a anti-catholic background.)

Thank you to anyone who posts!

1. Ultimately, when someone dies, they are either in a state of grace or not, and they are going to heaven or hell. However, most people who die, even in a state of grace, are still very attatched to sin. Nothing imperfect can enter heaven. (Revelation 21:27) Purgatory is purification to release our souls from the attachment of sin.
2. catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

First, read that page. It has everything you need to know. Here are some examples of purgatory in scripture that they put on that page:

1 Cor 3:15 “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire”. That passage can’t be speaking about heaven or hell, so it must be purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43–45"In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin’ (self explanatory).

1. Don’t stress about it. Just pray, and research the issue. Don’t worry if you have more issues with Catholic doctrine. Talk to people in RCIA about it when you start. For me, the most convincing evidence is the early church’s beliefs (they definetely prayed for the dead). And the fact that Jewish people, too, prayed for the dead (and some still do, depending on whether they are orthodox or not)

 

[T_Hope]

1. and how can I overcome this hurdle of theology and accept what the chuch teaches (Its hard to do when you come from a anti-catholic background.)

Welcome!

Thank you for your questions about purgatory. This is new to me as well and I appreciate the responses.

Although I cannot offer anything further on the subject of purgatory, I can tell you about my experience accepting new theological ideas taught by the Catholic Church which are very new to me, also coming from a very anti-Catholic background, mormon, in my case.

Yes, it is hard to let go of old ideas and open heart and mind to new ones. For me prayer with honest intentions due to a real longing to learn what God wants me to know is how I am beginning to understand. God led me to the Catholic faith through prayer. And now it is time for me to learn.

An example - the idea of the Holy Trinity was completely foreign to me. Mind boggling. I asked about it on this forum and was given reference to the opening verses in John 1.
I read those verses prayerfully. And I caught a glimpse of meaning but then it faded as quickly as it came. That night I prayed for understanding and then picked up the CCC (catechism of the Catholic Church) and read carefully and prayerfully. And through the grace of God I began to understand.

Accepting the idea of the Holy Trinity was a big step for me. It was one of the first.

Prayer is the way to overcome the hurdles. Just this morning I was thinking about the 40 days following the resurrection that Jesus spent with the disciples teaching them. I wondered what it would have been like to have been there, and then I realized He is here and He is teaching me one on one through His Holy Spirit as I:

1. pray
2. listen to the homilies shared by our bishop, priests, and deacons during Mass
3. read the Bible
4. attend and participate in RCIA
5. ask questions just as you are doing here
   and
6. pray.

I hope there is something helpful here. I’ve probably forgotten or haven’t thought of something. Others will have ideas that may be of help both of us.

May God bless you on your journey!

Hope

 

[JaredR]

Hello Linkthemissing,

Welcome to CAF. I just wanted to say that you can join RCIA even if you are not sure about coming into the Church. Joining RCIA is not a commitment to becoming Catholic. Some people attend RCIA year after year to ask questions and explore the faith without ever “signing their souls away.” There’s no pressure, so don’t feel like you have to have all your doubts and questions squared away in order to check out the local RCIA program; that’s actually one of the best places to be asking questions and expressing doubts.

God bless your journey.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

:waveeace be with you brothers and sisters!

Im a Baptist who is becoming Catholic, but before I join the RCIA I have a few big question on my mind.

1. what is purgatory?

In life, we Christians are going through the process of sanctification. This process is the getting away from our sinful attachments and becoming ever more Christlike. Struggling against sin in life is always painful; as Jesus said, “if anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.”

Now imagine that you die while you still have some sinful attachments left over (let’s say you’re a bit gluttonous, for instance). You are forgiven, through Christ’s Cross, of all the eternal penalties for your sins, yet you still have some detachment from sin, some sanctification, left to complete. Because you have died, you have a much clearer vision of God than you did in life. You see how very, very much you want to be with Him, and yet you are not yet completely with Him because you still have not completely gotten out of your sin.

Because God is so glorious, and people after death can perceive Him so much more clearly than we can in life, the last remaining bit of sanctification that has yet to occur can be a terrible torment. That completion of the process of sanctification is what we call Purgatory. Purgatory’s great torment is seeing so much of how wonderful God is, and yet not being able to be fully one with Him yet because of being partially still in sin. Purgatory is the conclusion of the Christian journey of sanctification. In life we keep becoming more and more purified; Purgatory is the conclusion of purification, the summit of Golgotha, if you will.

Souls in Purgatory simultaneously experience far greater joy and far greater pain than we do on Earth. Both their pain and their joy come from their ability to far more clearly see God. Their joy comes from the delight of such sight, their anguish comes from not being yet fully one with Him, and that pain is very great.

Another way to think about Purgatory is in terms of penalties and justice. I don’t like thinking about it that way as much, even though it’s accurate, because it is less intuitive to me. Christ on the Cross vanquished all eternal penalties for sin, yet the temporal penalties remain. We still have to die once, which according to Genesis is a temporal penalty of original sin. We also have to suffer in this life, which according to the Book of Revelation is a part of the “old order” that is passing away, a temporal penalty for sin that everyone on Earth endures. David prayed for forgiveness after he sinned with Bathsheba, and God forgave him, but he still had to pay the temporal penalty for his sin (his son died). Zechariah in Luke 1 surely repented in his heart for his sin as soon as Gabriel rebuked him, but he still had to suffer the temporal penalty of being mute for a period of time. Etc., etc. Christ obliterated all the eternal penalties for our sins on the Cross, but temporal penalties remain to be paid, and any temporal penalties for sins that are not paid on Earth must be paid after death, in Purgatory.

1. is purgatory in the bible?

Numerous Bible passages refer to a place of purification after death, though they don’t generally describe it much.

Matt. 12:32 says, “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” There would be little point in Jesus mentioning that those that blaspheme against the Spirit will not be pardoned in the age to come unless some sins are pardonable in the age to come.

1 Peter 3:19-21, 4:6 refer to some of Jesus’ actions after His death but before His resurrection. In the passage, He preaches to the souls of sinners that died in the time of Noah, in the Flood, that “they might live in the spirit in the estimation of God.” Jesus seems to have felt in this passage as well that purification after death is possible, for He preached to the dead that they might live in the spirit.

2 Maccabees 12:39-42 represent Judas Maccabees praying to God for some of his men who died in battle while wearing amulets of idols. This suggests again that purification after death is possible for some.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Here’s a passage that speaks pretty explicitly about Purgatory.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15:

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

“The Day” refers to a soul’s judgment after death, certainly not to any point during a man’s life. Every place in scripture where the coming Day is referred to, it is after death. Here again, the coming Day “will bring [a man’s works] to light” and judgment. The passage here speaks of a soul after death suffering loss as a consequence of its vain work being destroyed. A man with good works will receive reward, a man with vain works (or sinful attachments) will suffer loss as these attachments are destroyed in judgment after death. Yet the man himself will survive, “as one escaping through the flames.” This is the way we think of Purgatory.

Another reference to Purgatory is in 1 Tim. 3:16-18, in which the Apostle Paul appears to pray for the soul of Onesiphorus.
1 Tim. 3:16-18:

16
May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains.
17
But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me.
18
May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.

Paul repeatedly refers to Onesiphorus in past tense but to his family in present tense, and he prays for “mercy” on Onesiphorus’ family, suggesting sympathy for the bereaved. He also prays about Onesiphorus’ judgment, which would not be a normal prayer for a faithful Christian who is presently alive.

A possible additional reference to Purgatory is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. A common interpretation of this passage is that the rich man is in Hell and Lazarus is in Heaven. However, part of the theology of Hell is that the damned are completely evil, because they are shut out from the Presence of God and He is perfectly good. All that is good is in union with Him and all that is evil is in division from Him; consequently those in Heaven are completely righteous and those in Hell are completely evil.

However, in Luke 16, the rich man intercedes for his brothers from his place of suffering, praying for their repentance. Such a request could only come out of goodness. Yet if the man is not completely evil, he is not truly in Hell, for the nature of Hell is complete separation from God/goodness (all goodness is in Him). A resolution to the difficulty that makes sense would be that the rich man is in Purgatory.

1. and how can I overcome this hurdle of theology and accept what the chuch teaches (Its hard to do when you come from a anti-catholic background.)

Thank you to anyone who posts!

It is worth remembering that the Early Church as well as the Jews before Christian history believed that there is purification after death. The Baptist view is the “new kid on the block,” the “new interpretation,” which has only been around a few hundred years. The “normal Christian view” has always been the Catholic perspective, which existed for 2,000 years.

Here are a bunch of Early Church references to Purgatory:
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

God bless you!

 

[Claire_from_DE]

And basically, if you believe the Catholic church is the one Jesus established, and the Catholic church teaches that God makes provision for the soul of a person who’s not completely perfect to be purified after death before coming into His presence, why is that so difficult to believe? We don’t know exactly how God does this or what it is like to experience it. It must be joyful and painful at the same time. Could it be that the very consciousness that we are unworthy causes both pain and purification? Do we ‘burn with shame’ at our ingratitude for so great a gift that salvation is? Does God burn away our attachment to sin, leaving only love? Is the transition from death to heaven a gentle but painful process that enables the eyes of the soul to see God? This is a great mystery. Read the Catechism to see what it says.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Linkthemissing:

Usually, most of the problem starts with how we believe God talks to us - How he has revealed Himself to us - So, Before you tackle “Purgatory”, I really think you should read this section, and try to look at some of the X-Refs -
Chapter Two - God comes to meet Man - Please Read Article 1 - The Revelation of God - Which isn’t linked in this text:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PE.HTM
Article 2 - Transmission of Divine Revelation - Please Include Article 3 - Sacred Scripture
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PJ.HTM

Please Note -

• Books of the Bible are Abbreviated. The Catholic Church accepts as Canonical those books of Old Testament Scripture which were found in the Septuagent, which the Early Church used and of which St. Paul said, *"*All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."
  1 Timothy 3:16-17 - ESV

Documents of Vatican II
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
DV = Dei Verbum
LG = Lumen Gentium
UR = Unitatis Redintegratio
Links to Vatican I
intratext.com/x/eng0063.htm
papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm
**
**I don’t have all of the initials for all of the notes (but they will check out if you follow them). If you read this thoroughly, and follow the x-ref’s you can follow, this should be a couple weeks’ study… I hope this will help you to deal with “The Problem of the Solas”. Just as becoming a Christian required a new mindset (Conforming your mind to Christ), so becoming a Catholic will require a new mindset (Conforming your mind to His Church). This isn’t easy, but it’s really fairly simple once you realize what you have to do.

One thing you may want to do to help you with this is to some “Reading Material” -
Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn (Recently released)
Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament (Recently released)
Ignatius Bible (RSV 2nd Catholic Edition)
A Father who keeps His Promises, Scott Hahn
The Lamb’s Supper, Scott Hahn
Lord have Mercy, Scott Hahn
scotthahn.com/scott-hahn-books.html
The Life of Christ, Archbishop Fulton Sheen
The Priest is not his own, Archbishop Fulton Sheen
Life is worth living, Archbishop Fulton Sheen
lcchristiansoftware.com/v/vspfiles/V4_Backup/SheenBooks.htm

I could give you MORE, but I think it would just be a burden… Try reading this - Read, mar and inwardly digest to the best of your ability. Write down your questions aas they come up, and p/m me in a couple of days… My feeling is that once you’ve dealt with this issue to your satisfaction, once you understand that Authority is a SERVICE and not a TYRANNY, the rest of these things will start to make sense & resolve themselves.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael