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Gorgias
Guest
Right… 'cause “presumably immanently discerning marriage” gives the green light to pre-marital sexual expression, no? Lemme see if I can find where that appears in the Catechism…
Help please. I'm confused. What is allowed in a non marriage relationship?
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DarkLight
Guest
Technically, “pre-marital sexual expression” could cover anything from holding hands on up.
Seriously though - for example, most early teenagers I knew were barred from having private dates, even if it’s just going out to a coffee shop together. They had to have someone else with them. That would be a ridiculous rule to try to impose on adults.
I’d expect drinking would be another - a couple of newly legal 18 year olds (in a place where that’s legal) ought to be much more careful than an older couple who each knows their own tolerances.
Seriously though - for example, most early teenagers I knew were barred from having private dates, even if it’s just going out to a coffee shop together. They had to have someone else with them. That would be a ridiculous rule to try to impose on adults.
I’d expect drinking would be another - a couple of newly legal 18 year olds (in a place where that’s legal) ought to be much more careful than an older couple who each knows their own tolerances.
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Gorgias
Guest
Right – that’s why most births take place in September, pointing to the fact that most conceptions happen around the Christmas and New Year’s holidays…
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Elf01
Guest
I think that the drinking together depends on the people involved. If they don’t get drunk and drink doesn’t impact their behavior that much (or there are people around they trust to prevent them doing anything they shouldn’t) it may be OK.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
If the people involved are mature and experienced enough that they aren’t saying, “I’m so confused about what I’m allowed to do with my boyfriend” then I agree with you.
If you’re not sure where to draw the line when you’re sober, alcohol is just going to make it more fuzzy. You also have to have drunk enough times to know how alcohol makes you react and when you should stop drinking.
I also think mature couples may be able to be alone in a house or even in a bedroom without jumping each other’s bones.
If you’re not sure where to draw the line when you’re sober, alcohol is just going to make it more fuzzy. You also have to have drunk enough times to know how alcohol makes you react and when you should stop drinking.
I also think mature couples may be able to be alone in a house or even in a bedroom without jumping each other’s bones.
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Xantippe
Guest
I would say that I’d probably be a lot friendlier to enthusiastic kissing than you are.
As long as one is fully under control, I think it’s OK, and a natural expression of courtship.
Your list is generally very good.
I’d also suggest the book “How Far Can We Go?” by Salkeld and Perrault. An important idea that they have is the question of what expressions of affection are appropriate to people at different stages of life (say 9th graders versus graduate students) or at different phases of relationship (say new relationship versus fiances). They say some very interesting and important things about pacing (like you don’t want to use up all available moral forms of expression by 14 or by week two of your relationship). It’s also important to ask yourself, is this form of affection appropriate to how I actually feel about this person and where our relationship is? For example, kissing expresses “I REALLY LIKE YOU!!!”, so you should not kiss somebody like that if that’s not how you genuinely feel about them. Don’t do things with your body that are a lie.
Another question (and I forget if this is in the book) is, how easy is this for me? If it’s really, really hard, that is probably a sign to dial it down. And that’s for both parties. If it’s really, really hard for only one, you need to keep dialing down.
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Xantippe
Guest
No hand holding???
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Xantippe
Guest
I agree with DarkLight.Right… 'cause “presumably immanently discerning marriage” gives the green light to pre-marital sexual expression, no? Lemme see if I can find where that appears in the Catechism…
I have a 15-year-old, and if she were being asked to dances, I wouldn’t let a boy drive her anywhere. It would be, go to event, get picked up, good night!
But a 25-year-old daughter would be a completely different kettle of fish.
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Xantippe
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Xantippe
Guest
Some other questions:
–Is this relationship appropriate and good for me?
And (if it’s getting serious)
–Does this relationship have a future?
If you’re getting serious but it’s not realistic that you could eventually be happily married to each other, it’s time to pull the plug. That is really one of the most dangerous situations: a hot-and-heavy physical relationship that has no realistic happy ending (for example, because of character problems and/or incompatibility).
The OP’s age and the nature of the relationship are very important.
–Is this relationship appropriate and good for me?
And (if it’s getting serious)
–Does this relationship have a future?
If you’re getting serious but it’s not realistic that you could eventually be happily married to each other, it’s time to pull the plug. That is really one of the most dangerous situations: a hot-and-heavy physical relationship that has no realistic happy ending (for example, because of character problems and/or incompatibility).
The OP’s age and the nature of the relationship are very important.
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Rau
Guest
Now I have never heard of that being inappropriate for responsible persons of appropriate age.
If you are prone to drink to excess, then don’t.
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Gorgias
Guest
In the shallow end of the pool, sure. However, the same standards apply in the deep end of the pool to 15-year-olds as to 25-year-olds.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I said “passionate”, by which I am not talking about a french kiss good night or a girlfriend saying hello or goodbye to her boyfriend going off to military service. I believe it was the Monk who was anti-kissing, not me.
If I must spell it out, I mean “making out for a half hour on the couch or anywhere else one happens to be.” As in passionate, as in kissing for the sake of getting off on it, as in warming up for the ol’ run around the bases.
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Xantippe
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Xantippe
Guest
Kissing is great, but it’s not THAT great.
Of course, if a particular couple gets overstimulated, that particular couple needs to tap the brakes.
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DarkLight
Guest
Yeah, I think this needs to be followed by, older couples aren’t typically asking these questions. I’m almost 30 and I think I have a fair handle on what I can and can’t handle without leading to it going too far.
In a relationship it’s important to look on the goal : marriage.
If you are not in that mind or found that’s the bf will not be a suitable husband, better to break before it’s go too far.
Have a relationship to have a relationship only, is a roead to nowhere in a christian perspective.
If you are not in that mind or found that’s the bf will not be a suitable husband, better to break before it’s go too far.
Have a relationship to have a relationship only, is a roead to nowhere in a christian perspective.
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Xantippe
Guest
However, if it’s a 15-year-old asking, it’s not really fair to ask that all of their dating be directed toward finding a spouse.
In that case, although it occasionally happens that people marry their boyfriends or girlfriends from high school, it makes the most sense to advise paying attention to their school work, sticking mostly to group events, not spending a lot of time alone together, and accepting the fact that this relationship is unlikely to end in marriage, so just try to be good to each other, not hurt each other, and have some wholesome fun.
Younger and older people do need different advice.
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Xantippe
Guest
That’s what parents’ intention is for the young couple–not necessarily the young couple’s intention.
My 15-year-old just came back from a church youth group meeting where the small group of girls was mostly talking about their boyfriends and being “betrayed” by them. This was awkward for my 15-year-old who didn’t have a boyfriend to complain about.
I grew up in a time and place where there was a lot of serious high school dating (or “going out”), but there’s less today. At my kids’ school there’s a limited number of couples, but there are school dances where one is expected to bring a date. There was an absolute flurry of activity before the Homecoming Dance as nearly all the kids paired up for the big night.
Parents hate young romance, but I have to put in a few good words for it:
–A little supervised high school dating, or at least going to dances, gives kids an opportunity to practice social skills that they might otherwise not develop. (We have a lot of young CAFers who are complete lost in the world of dating and very awkward with the opposite sex–I was the same way at that age.)
–When kids are in high school and dating, it’s an excellent opportunity for parents to mentor them and provide helpful advice on manners, morals and safety. Once kids are legal adults and/or have left the parental home, this is a lot less feasible. (I didn’t date in high school and only started in college when I was doing a study abroad–understandably, my parents did not have any (name removed by moderator)ut at all.)
–While a lot of parents want their kids to wait until college to date, the problem is that there isn’t a lot of dating in college these days, so you wind up with 22-year-olds who feel like social failures because they’ve never so much as had a non-platonic cup of coffee date.
So it’s a hard road to walk–there are dangers both to early dating and getting a late start.
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