H
heisey8
Guest
I need help defending Our Lady! Jer. 44:16+ speaks of a queen of Heaven in condemnation. My protestant sister says this is Mary, and I don’t know how to refute it. Can you help please?
Nicole
Nicole
- Status
S
Sooner4Christ
Guest
First that was an excellent question! However your sister fails to read the bible in the context and nature and purpose it was written for. If she actually believes Mary is a pagan queen, then the entire theology of Jesus Christ is in vain. The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn’t mean this term can’t rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary.
The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzer, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Daniel 2:37), would she suggest that this precludes Jesus from being called the same title in Rev. 17:14; 19:16?
Since the destiny of all Christians is to reign as kings and queens with Christ in heaven (Eph. 2:12; Rev. 1:6; 5:10), and since Mary is the preeminent Christian, there’s nothing wrong with giving her the title which Christ, the King of kings, bestowed upon her in making Mary his mother.
Your sister has a child like faith, but child like faith can make child like accusations. Read the bible in context is the key! You can’t just read 1 chapter and conclude that is what it means. I would suggest your sister reading the new testament 2 times in a row straight through, then read the old testament… Then she will be in awe!!!
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Does she also condemn Christ for being called King of Kings since that is also a title that a pagan king took? This is just another lame bash at the Blessed Virgin. The NT says that all generations will call Mary Blessed…ask your sister if she does and if not why?
Pax tecum,
Pax tecum,
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I think this was Astarte. I know it wasn’t Mary.
Z
Zooey
Guest
A couple of things:
*]The time frame is off! The passage in Jeremiah is talking about an ancient pagan deity, called ‘queen of heaven’, meaning that she was their idol/goddess. This was the old fertility goddess of the middle East…A far cry from the Virgin Mother.
*]This is a different word altogether that is translated ‘queen’ here. (Malokoth[sp?])It means the wife or concubine of a ruler. The word for the queen mother–which is what Mary is, since her Son is the King of Kings–is giberah. (Maternal meaning, not referring to old fertility rites–i.e., orgies–as the other title did).
The people of Israel had been worshipping pagan idols.Instead of accepting that this kind of idolatry had brought the natural consequences of sin on them, they tried to blame it on the prophets. They wanted to go back to the old pagan rites.
Jesus’ beautiful, sainted mother. is the polar opposite of the ‘queen’ in this passage. (What has all ready been said is true: there is a counterfeit of everything that is good & pure. That counterfeit is talked about here in Jeremiah).
I hope that this helps. God bless.
M
mlchance
Guest
The “queen of heaven” mentioned in Jeremiah is Mary. So that would make Mary more than 500 years old when Jesus was born. Interesting.
– Mark L. Chance.
D
deb1
Guest
Going to its logical extreme…the Protestant argument against Mary is actually one against God. If Mary is a 500 year old Babylonian Goddess then our God is no better then Zeus or THor.
Do people of this view actually think this through logically or are they so determined to undermine the Holy Mother that they accidentally disgrace their own beliefs?
S
Scalia
Guest
Your questions have been answered below. Why don’t you lay some scripture down on your sibling…
Mary is the Arc of the Covenant. The Arc, which preceeded the Jews in battle, was powerful because it held the word of God within it. Scripturally, we see the following:
2 Samuel 6:2 "Then David and all the people who were with him set out for Baala of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which bears the name of the LORD of hosts enthroned above the cherubim."
Luke 1:39 "During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah"
2 Samuel 6:9 "David feared the LORD that day and said, ‘How can the ark of the LORD come to me ?’ "
Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me ?"
2 Samuel 6:11 "The ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite for three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and his whole house."
Luke 1:56 "Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home."
2 Samuel 6: 14, 16 "Then David … came dancing before the LORD … As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, and she despised him in her heart."
Luke 1:44 "For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy."
2 Samuel 6:21-23 "But David replied to Michal: ‘I was dancing before the LORD. As the LORD lives … not only will I make merry before the LORD, but I will demean myself even more. I will be lowly in your esteem, but in the esteem of the slave girls you spoke of I will be honored.’ "
Luke 1:46-48 "And Mary said: ‘My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;
behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.’ "
The Ark is powerful. Cf. Fall of Jericho Joshua 6: 1-20
Joshua 6:2-20 "And to Joshua the LORD said, ‘I have delivered Jericho and its king into your power. Have all the soldiers circle the city, marching once around it. Do this for six days, with seven priests carrying ram’s horns ahead of the ark. … When they give a long blast on the ram’s horns and you hear that signal, all the people shall shout aloud. The wall of the city will collapse, and they will be able to make a frontal attack.’ Summoning the priests, Joshua, son of Nun, then ordered them to take up the ark of the covenant with seven of the priests carrying ram’s horns in front of the ark of the LORD."
The Ark is holy because of what it contains. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Revelation 11:19-12:5 "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
… She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne."
NAB
F
Fergal
Guest
Well if it is ok for your friend to take that piece of scripture completely out of context then so will I. Ask her if she heard the wonderful verse about our Lady in the book of wisdom!!
Wisdom is referred to as she and really it would make for some beautiful reading and meditation on Our Blessed Mother. For example:
***I will thank you and praise you, ***
and bless the name of the Lord.
***When I was still a youth, before I went travelling, ***
in my prayers I asked outright for her.
***Outside the sanctuary I would pray for her, ***
and to the last I will continue to seek her.
***From her blossoming to the ripening of her grape ***
***my heart has taken its delight in her. ***
***My foot has pursued a straight path, ***
I have been following her steps ever since my youth.
***By bowing my ear a little I have received her, ***
and have found much instruction.
***Thanks to her I have advanced; ***
the glory be to Him who has given me such a wonderful guide,
***For I am determined to put her into practice, ***
***I have earnestly pursued what is good, ***
I will not be put to shame.
***My soul has fought to possess her, ***
***I have been scrupulous in keeping the Law; ***
***I have stretched out my hands to heaven ***
and bewailed my ignorance of her;
***I have directed my soul towards her, ***
and in purity have found her.
or
I will not hide from you the mysteries of God, but will seek her out from the beginning of her birth, and bring the knowledge of her to light, and will not pass over the truth:
or
And I preferred her before kingdoms and thrones, and esteemed riches nothing in comparison of her. 9 Neither did I compare unto her any precious stone: for all gold in comparison of her, is as a little sand, and silver in respect to her shall be counted as clay. 10 I loved her above health and beauty, and chose to have her instead of light: for her light cannot be put out. 11 Now all good things came to me together with her, and innumerable riches through her hands, 12*** And I rejoiced in all these: for this wisdom went before me, and I knew not that she was the mother of them all.***
***Which I have learned without guile, and communicate without envy, and her riches I hide not. ***14 For she is an infinite treasure to men! which they that use, become the friends of God, being commended for the gift of discipline.
Wisdom is referred to as she and really it would make for some beautiful reading and meditation on Our Blessed Mother. For example:
***I will thank you and praise you, ***
and bless the name of the Lord.
***When I was still a youth, before I went travelling, ***
in my prayers I asked outright for her.
***Outside the sanctuary I would pray for her, ***
and to the last I will continue to seek her.
***From her blossoming to the ripening of her grape ***
***my heart has taken its delight in her. ***
***My foot has pursued a straight path, ***
I have been following her steps ever since my youth.
***By bowing my ear a little I have received her, ***
and have found much instruction.
***Thanks to her I have advanced; ***
the glory be to Him who has given me such a wonderful guide,
***For I am determined to put her into practice, ***
***I have earnestly pursued what is good, ***
I will not be put to shame.
***My soul has fought to possess her, ***
***I have been scrupulous in keeping the Law; ***
***I have stretched out my hands to heaven ***
and bewailed my ignorance of her;
***I have directed my soul towards her, ***
and in purity have found her.
or
I will not hide from you the mysteries of God, but will seek her out from the beginning of her birth, and bring the knowledge of her to light, and will not pass over the truth:
or
And I preferred her before kingdoms and thrones, and esteemed riches nothing in comparison of her. 9 Neither did I compare unto her any precious stone: for all gold in comparison of her, is as a little sand, and silver in respect to her shall be counted as clay. 10 I loved her above health and beauty, and chose to have her instead of light: for her light cannot be put out. 11 Now all good things came to me together with her, and innumerable riches through her hands, 12*** And I rejoiced in all these: for this wisdom went before me, and I knew not that she was the mother of them all.***
***Which I have learned without guile, and communicate without envy, and her riches I hide not. ***14 For she is an infinite treasure to men! which they that use, become the friends of God, being commended for the gift of discipline.
F
Fergal
Guest
22 For in her is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, 23 Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile.
25 For she is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.
29 For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it.
My favourite…
2 Her have I loved, and have sought her out from my youth, and have desired to take her for my spouse, and I became a lover of her beauty. 3 She glorifieth her nobility by being conversant with God: yea and the Lord of all things hath loved her.
Finally,…
16 When I go into my house, I shall repose myself with her: for her conversation hath no bitterness, nor her company any tediousness, but joy and gladness.
25 For she is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.
29 For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it.
My favourite…
2 Her have I loved, and have sought her out from my youth, and have desired to take her for my spouse, and I became a lover of her beauty. 3 She glorifieth her nobility by being conversant with God: yea and the Lord of all things hath loved her.
Finally,…
16 When I go into my house, I shall repose myself with her: for her conversation hath no bitterness, nor her company any tediousness, but joy and gladness.
H
heisey8
Guest
Jiminy Crickets! I sure am glad the Holy Spirit brought me here! Thank you! Thank you!!
JMJ,
Nicole
JMJ,
Nicole
J
jpusateri
Guest
No relation.
R
Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
It never ceases to amaze me the level of animosity most protestants seem to have towards Our Lady. I sincerelly doubt that Jesus would like them talking about his mother like that…
P
promethius
Guest
the argument i like to use, whenever a protestant tells me that mary was just like any other person and could likewise be condemned to hell is this…
not even mary says this about herself, and angel tells her “Blessed art thou amongst women.” mary, the virgin mother, is the most blessed of any woman ever to live. That means that if mary did indeed go to hell then every woman who has ever lived is now also in hell. and, for good measure, i’m not willing to bet my own shambles of holiness against the mother of God, the handmaid of the Lord, so if mary is condemned then so am i. i would think that anyone with any humility so as to recognize their sin would be rooting full force for mary on the pure fact that if she doesnt trump then we’re all doomed.
not even mary says this about herself, and angel tells her “Blessed art thou amongst women.” mary, the virgin mother, is the most blessed of any woman ever to live. That means that if mary did indeed go to hell then every woman who has ever lived is now also in hell. and, for good measure, i’m not willing to bet my own shambles of holiness against the mother of God, the handmaid of the Lord, so if mary is condemned then so am i. i would think that anyone with any humility so as to recognize their sin would be rooting full force for mary on the pure fact that if she doesnt trump then we’re all doomed.
G
Genesis315
Guest
Hmmm, if the Lord thy God is the king, who could this queen be? And who is praised for ever and ever?
If I remember correctly, there was this one lady who said, all generations would call her blessed–maybe it’s her…
M
Milliardo
Guest
Rand Al'Thor:
That’s so true. Isn’t it said that Jesus, in being obedient to His Father, would rightly follow the commandment to honour father and mother, and that in turn He would like us to honour her as well then? I wonder why Protestants don’t get it…
S
Scott_Waddell
Guest
It’s a logical fallacy. Consider:
*Hitler was evil.
Hitler was Chancellor of Germany.
Gerhard Schröder is the current Chancellor of Germany.
Therefore, Gerhard Schröder is evil.*
It is not the title that is good or bad, but the one holding it.
Scott
*Hitler was evil.
Hitler was Chancellor of Germany.
Gerhard Schröder is the current Chancellor of Germany.
Therefore, Gerhard Schröder is evil.*
It is not the title that is good or bad, but the one holding it.
Scott
M
Milliardo
Guest
Scott Waddell:
Hhmm…that probably didn’t come out right, given the nature of the topic, though I know the point you’re trying to make. Just clarifying it, really.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
The excellent book “Catholic For A Reason” contains a chapter on Mary that covers this beautifully. (I just re-read it last night, through all my marks and underlinings. This part begins of page 193.)
For a great article on this very subject:
**
Is Mary’s Queenship Biblical?**
By Edward P. Sri
"Mary’s title as “Queen of Heaven and Earth” is a great scandal to many non-Catholic Christians. After all, the Bible doesn’t mention anything about there being a queen in God’s kingdom. All this royal attention Catholics give to Mary—whether it’s singing “Hail, holy queen enthroned above” or portraying Mary in statues and paintings with a crown on her head—seems to many non-Catholics to detract from the royalty of Christ, who alone is King of Kings. Besides, how could Mary be a queen, since she is not the wife of the Jesus but only his mother?
One biblical theme sheds light on these questions and serves as a key for unlocking the mystery of Mary’s queenship: the Old Testament tradition of the “queen mother” in the Davidic kingdom."
The rest of the article
Pax tecum,
For a great article on this very subject:
**
Is Mary’s Queenship Biblical?**
By Edward P. Sri
"Mary’s title as “Queen of Heaven and Earth” is a great scandal to many non-Catholic Christians. After all, the Bible doesn’t mention anything about there being a queen in God’s kingdom. All this royal attention Catholics give to Mary—whether it’s singing “Hail, holy queen enthroned above” or portraying Mary in statues and paintings with a crown on her head—seems to many non-Catholics to detract from the royalty of Christ, who alone is King of Kings. Besides, how could Mary be a queen, since she is not the wife of the Jesus but only his mother?
One biblical theme sheds light on these questions and serves as a key for unlocking the mystery of Mary’s queenship: the Old Testament tradition of the “queen mother” in the Davidic kingdom."
The rest of the article
Pax tecum,
- Status