Help refuting a Deist worldview

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Hey everyone, I come before the wonderful community of Catholic answers seeking assistance. A friend of mine was confronted with this post and turned to me for help, but I find myself inadequate to truly address it. So any responses would be wonderful!
People just dont get it, Im a Dieist, I believe that God is an absentee creator, I’m not saying that he never existed or doesnt exist now, I’m simply saying that he no longer affiliates himself with this world. I believe that a major contributing factor to his departure from this world is the rise of organized religion.
Lets face it, any form of organized religion did not have the purpose of salvation for those who followed it, it was created to serve the brilliant people who devoloped it, to give them the ability to control the masses through fear. Since the dawn of man, rulers have established state religions in order to set down law and order for their people. The people of Greece, Rome, Eqypt, Scandanavia and other various mythologies zealously believed in their respective religions. What are they now? They are deemed mere myth by modern society. What will Christianity, Islam, and Judiaism be in a thousand years? Probably no different then the thousands of out dated religions before them. They’re sole purpose was to provided the leaders of these backgrounds with divine authority in order to control the masses of whom they ruled.
Why would God tell Moses for the jewish people not to eat selfish? Because MOSES not God, saw the ill effects of shellfish on his people wandering the desert, who btw, God led them into. Moses knew that without some greater authority, he would not be able to stop these people from eating the things that were giving them fatal diseases. The fact is that Humans are smart, Humanity is stupid. And without a leader humanity is doomed to quarrel amongst themselves without end. Religion is this leader, developed by brilliant individuals to control their retarded masses.
The bible itself states that stoning people for being gay is totally gay. And the response of Christians is always well thats was just the times. So your saying that your all-seeing, omnipotent God, who created this world and knows all that is to come did not realize that humanity would evolve beyond this? And why if God knew of all the technoligies to come, did he command Noah to make the ark? A very primeval object compared to the magnifigcent technological feats of ships we have today. It just makes no sense. If God parted the Red Sea for the jews in Egypt, how could he allow for the Holocaust? Where was there Moses? It just doesnt make sense.
We are all brain washed to believe in these horribly tainted orgainzed beliefs. I dont think God ever meant for these religions, I dont think he ever meant for them to become what they are, Im not even sure he ever meant for the bible to be written the way it was. And with all the missing gospels that has been edited out over their years be various rulers, we may never know what God truly meant. Every ruler since the beginning of Chritianity has shifted its beliefs to their own liking. My belief: God created the world and all those in it. And we are all created in his image, all with a little piece of him inside us. We make God’s presence known on earth, and he sees no necessity in being here as we are all small off shoot of his grace. We have complete dominion over this world, we are on our own for now. He sent his only son to save us, and now its our responsibility to live the lives we believe is right.
My final message is Believe, but dont put all your stock in God, God wont change this world, if we choose to let it burn to the ground, it will. God wont do a damn thing about it. We are the only ones in charge of this world, and we have to find the best in it. Reaching out to Him is pointless, this is a test, He wants to see if we can do it on our own, and so far we arent, we are just having people exploit His name for their own gain. We need to find comfort in Humanity before God allows us his hospitaltiy.
Any help responding to this would be wonderful!
 
Hey everyone, I come before the wonderful community of Catholic answers seeking assistance. A friend of mine was confronted with this post and turned to me for help, but I find myself inadequate to truly address it. So any responses would be wonderful!

Any help responding to this would be wonderful!
Jesus Christ.

As Christians, we believe God became one of us, and fully revealed God’s self. This is hardly the act of a God who’s disinterested and willing to let creation have its way with itself.

In summary, overall, God doesn’t “test us” as much as God loves us.
 
I don’t disagree that humans have made a mess of this world, but that’s only proof of our free will. It does NOT prove that God has abandoned us.

Additionally, some people truly feel the direct presence of God in their lives – would the critic deny those experiences? If a person has not yet recognized the presence of God in this world, that is only proof of that person’s relationship (or lack thereof) with God, but cannot logically be extrapolated to an absence of God in the entire world.
 
Haliit – does your friend have contact with this deist? I find his logic very strange. He believes in God, but thinks of Him as, basically, being out to lunch. Yet he believes that God sent His only Son to save us. The he claims it’s our responsibility to live lives that are right. Further, he complains that the Bible isn’t what God intended. I would wonder how he knows about Jesus (or whoever he thinks the Son of God is). He compares Judaism and Christianity with other pagan religions, yet Judaism and Christianity are still around (even though they were around when many of these other pagan religions existed). Where are the temples to Zues, Diana of the Ephesians, Dagon, Baal or any other pagan god he may wish to name? (I do realize that some pagan religions are making a comeback, but that is the result of man’s denial of the one, true God of creation.) He complains about Moses not allowing the people to eat shellfish. I’m sure that was a big problem in the wilderness (just a hint of sarcasm here). I would point out that the Hebrew scriptures have been unchanged for centuries (the discovery of Isaiah among the Dead Sea Scrolls is evidence that it has not changed in at least 2000 years). Why can’t these be counted as reliable? BTW – Moses (or, more correctly, the Mosaic Law) required male children to be circumcised the 8th day (OK, it started with Abraham, but it was still part of the Mosaic Law). Why 8 days? Scientist have discovered that on the 8th day after birth, children have a very high amount keratin (I think that’s what it is) which allows the blood to clot quickly. Shellfish as primarily scavengers (there is also a ban on eating scavenger birds), and things like clams and oysters are basically little more than filters. I would think this is proof that God (or even just the religious leader) was very concerned about the people and wanted them to be healthy. While there are many “religions” that do take advantage of their flock, that doesn’t mean that ALL shepherds are wicked. He would have you (or your friend) throw out the baby with the bathwater (to coin an old phrase). If he doubts the scriptures, then quoting them won’t help. I would suggest you first pin him down on some of these things (especially where the scriptures are concerned). If and when he acknowledges that scriptures are accurate, then go into that (if he says “some” scriptures, find out what he accepts and go from there).
If this is causing your friend to question his/her faith, I would reaffirm a belief in the Scriptures, then point to the promises God has made, and show how God has fulfilled them (even the fact that God sent us His Son is proof of Scripture fulfilled).
Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for the help. I worked up a rather lengthy response that I hope will be effective.

I’m going to take this out of order:

We are all brain washed to believe in these horribly tainted orgainzed beliefs. I dont think God ever meant for these religions, I dont think he ever meant for them to become what they are, Im not even sure he ever meant for the bible to be written the way it was. And with all the missing gospels that has been edited out over their years be various rulers, we may never know what God truly meant. Every ruler since the beginning of Chritianity has shifted its beliefs to their own liking. My belief: God created the world and all those in it. And we are all created in his image, all with a little piece of him inside us. We make God’s presence known on earth, and he sees no necessity in being here as we are all small off shoot of his grace. We have complete dominion over this world, we are on our own for now. He sent his only son to save us, and now its our responsibility to live the lives we believe is right.

First off, your belief that God sent His only Son to save us is proof that God is not some distant figure, some great Creator who has left His creation to its own devices. It shows an intimate involvement with us. It shows us that God desires a relationship with us. You are correct that we are created in God’s image, but He does see a huge necessity in being here. Not for His benefit, He doesn’t need us or our worship, everything that God needs He contains within Himself. All of this is for our benefit.

Your blanket statement of “horribly tainted organized beliefs” leaves a lot to be desired. What horribly tainted organized beliefs? You can throw out all the generalizations that you like. Maybe if you would present a rationalized and direct critique of beliefs that you find to be “horribly tainted”, it would be possible to have a dialogue and explain why these beliefs are correct, necessary, and ordained by God.

The story that all these missing gospels have been edited out over the years by various rulers is patently false. I’d recommend you investigate the history of the Bible and how it was organized before presenting these ready-to-serve arguments against Christianity. I assume you are referring to books such as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Phillip, and the Gospel of Judas Iscariot. There are tons and tons of study into these books which explains why they are not legitimate Gospels and are not included in the canon of the New Testament. But to make it short, “they go back to the second and third century (at the earliest)—which, of course, means that they were absolutely not written by Thomas, Philip, or, in the most recent case, Judas. They were a product of a group condemned as heretics called ‘Gnostics” [1]. If you would read the Church Fathers, you would find references to the “four Gospels” as early as the first and second century.

You would also try to make the claim that every ruler of Christianity has shifted the teachings of the religion to suit their own needs. Once again, you need a real lesson in Church history. Books of Christian teaching as far back as the first and second century, notably, the Didache¸ are remarkably consistent with the current teachings of the Church. Any discrepancies are not the result of the religion changing to suit the whims of a certain ruler, but a development of the doctrine and the faith as the doctors of the Church grew to a greater understanding of the deposit of faith, and even these developments are far from any radical changes from the original teachings of our religion.

The bible itself states that stoning people for being gay is totally gay. And the response of Christians is always well thats was just the times. So your saying that your all-seeing, omnipotent God, who created this world and knows all that is to come did not realize that humanity would evolve beyond this? And why if God knew of all the technoligies to come, did he command Noah to make the ark? A very primeval object compared to the magnifigcent technological feats of ships we have today. It just makes no sense. If God parted the Red Sea for the jews in Egypt, how could he allow for the Holocaust? Where was there Moses? It just doesnt make sense.

Truly, the response that “that was just the times” is the correct response. God did (and does) know that humanity would develop beyond much of the Old Testament. You seem to be lacking in an understanding of the nature of God and how He relates to creation. We are temporal beings, we exist within time, and events to us are sequential. God Himself is outside of time. All of time is like a moment to Him. He sees everything, past, present, and future as if it has already happened, lain out like a page in front of Him. However, God is our Father, and we are His children. Therefore, He takes us by the hand and leads us along our sequence of events. He allows us to be what we are, temporal, imperfect beings who exist in time and experience our life as a sequence of events. God knew of the ships we have today, just as He knows the ships we will have a century from now. However, He lets Noah exist in his time and leads us through the life we are experiencing. It makes perfect sense.

Your second point is an entirely different situation. You seem to be struggling with what is known as the “problem of evil” or the “problem of suffering”. It’s something that everyone struggles with, many times in their life, Christian or Jew or Muslim or Hindu or agnostic. The problem lies within our imperfect, fallen nature, and the gift of free will. Often our free will puts us at odds with what God desires for us, and in that you have evil, and through evil you create suffering. However, the way in which God reconciles this is that even though He allows us free will, even the free will to turn from Him and do evil, He in His infinite wisdom and power can use these human failings to lead to an eventual greater good. Once again, as humans, existing in time, we may not always see this good, but we can have trust in God that He can turn everything towards Him. It’s like reading a great novel (history itself is the greatest novel, with God as the author, it’s HIS-story). When terrible things happen to the characters in a novel, they may feel hopeless, lost, distraught, and abandoned. They can’t see the plan, they don’t see the great end, and so they lose heart. But the author knows the end; he knows how he will turn this tragedy into a happy ending. We may just have to wait until the end of the book to see it.
 
con’t

Why would God tell Moses for the jewish people not to eat selfish? Because MOSES not God, saw the ill effects of shellfish on his people wandering the desert, who btw, God led them into. Moses knew that without some greater authority, he would not be able to stop these people from eating the things that were giving them fatal diseases. The fact is that Humans are smart, Humanity is stupid. And without a leader humanity is doomed to quarrel amongst themselves without end. Religion is this leader, developed by brilliant individuals to control their retarded masses.

You are correct that humanity is doomed without a leader, and that religion is supposed to supply these leaders. However, your mistake lies in where this authority originates.

You seem to fall into the trap that if something can be explained by science or any other rational means, then it disproves God’s involvement in such an event. This is a dangerous fallacy. God can and often does work outside of the bounds of science, but He is not limited to that. He can and often does work within the realm that we can understand. In fact, who is to say that every time someone is cured, it’s not God working? It could just be God working through our human means and understanding.

Anyways, shellfish. You seem to be proposing that because it’s possible that Moses, a human, could recognize the ill-effects of shellfish on the Israelites and wish to remove that as an option for food, that God had no involvement. You say he just invoked God as his backing to give his words weight. I propose to you that God, all-knowing Deity that He is, knew that the shellfish would present a problem to His people, the Israelites. Knowing this, He tells His prophet, Moses, that the Jews were not to consume shellfish. God actually is backing this statement, because it’s His. It’s the same basic situation, the same end result, but the origins and implications are vastly different.
Lets face it, any form of organized religion did not have the purpose of salvation for those who followed it, it was created to serve the brilliant people who devoloped it, to give them the ability to control the masses through fear. Since the dawn of man, rulers have established state religions in order to set down law and order for their people. The people of Greece, Rome, Eqypt, Scandanavia and other various mythologies zealously believed in their respective religions. What are they now? They are deemed mere myth by modern society. What will Christianity, Islam, and Judiaism be in a thousand years? Probably no different then the thousands of out dated religions before them. They’re sole purpose was to provided the leaders of these backgrounds with divine authority in order to control the masses of whom they ruled.
*

First off, you present some civilizations and note that their religions are now deemed as nothing more than myth, and ask “where will Judaism, Christianity, and Islam be in a thousand years?” I would like to begin by reminding you that Judaism predates many of these, especially Rome, and is still practiced worldwide. Christianity and Islam are both developments from Judaism and trace their lineage and history back along with the Jews.

As far as your points about religion only being used to control the masses, I refer you back to the previous section.

If man simply invented religion, along with our understanding of God and His teachings, surely we could have done a better job than Christianity.

“An “impersonal God”-- well and good. A subjective God of beauty, truth and goodness, inside our own heads – better still. A formless life-force surging through us, a vast power which we can tap – best of all. But God Himself, alive, pulling at the other end of the cord, perhaps, approaching an infinite speed, the hunter, king, husband – that is quite another matter. There comes a moment when the children who have been playing at burglars hush suddenly: was that a real footstep in the hall? There comes a moment when people who have been dabbling in religion (“Man’s search for God!”) suddenly draw back. Supposing we really found Him? We never meant it to come to that! Worse still, supposing He had found us?”
-C.S. Lewis

Most religion in history has been, as Lewis puts it, “Man’s search for God”. The difference we find in Judaism, and from it Christianity, is that this is “God’s search for man”. A religion with an all-power, all-knowing God, who knows not only my actions, but my thoughts and my intentions as well, who holds me accountable for them, that is not the God I would invent.

My final message is Believe, but dont put all your stock in God, God wont change this world, if we choose to let it burn to the ground, it will. God wont do a damn thing about it. We are the only ones in charge of this world, and we have to find the best in it. Reaching out to Him is pointless, this is a test, He wants to see if we can do it on our own, and so far we arent, we are just having people exploit His name for their own gain. We need to find comfort in Humanity before God allows us his hospitaltiy.

My final message is believe, and put all your stock in God. God will change this world, if we chose to let Him. He will not abandon us, “and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Matthew 28:20). “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).
We are in this world, and we have to live here. We must do the best we can with it, and we do that by living out the teachings of our God and his Son Jesus Christ. Reaching out to Him bears much fruit, by reaching out to Him and receiving His grace we can do much good. By turning away from Him we can do nothing but harm. We must find comfort with God, we must know His love and his Word, before we may find any true comfort in humanity, and before we can find true happiness with Him.
 
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