Help regarding Evangelium vitae, abortion and salvation challenge!

[irishpatrick]

I am currently having a running discussion regarding a John Paul II encyclical as it relates to abortion and salvation.

The person I am speaking with insists that all people can feel assured that the souls of babies who are aborted are saved and will immediately experience the beatific vision after their death. Now, beyond that being wrong, and his refusal to accept that position is wrong, he has challenged me with one paragraph from section 99 of JP2’s encyclical Evangelium vitae. He quoted from that encyclical, and here is the quote he presents:

I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. . . . The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord."​

I felt confused with that quote, so I went to the Vatican site, and this is what that paragraph actually says:

I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. To the same Father and his mercy you can with sure hope entrust your child…​

Here is the problem. Many sites, including CA, has the first version, and only the Vatican has the second version…so how do I convince him which version is correct and how did so many sites get that wrong version?

 

[chessmane4e5]

So is this person implying that since aborted babies go to Heaven, and since God will forgive the woman who had abortions, that abortions are okay?

Neither version of JP II’s encyclical say this. A person that knows something is sin, and does it anyways, is not going to be forgiven without a major conversion of their heart.

Yes it is true that aborted babies go to Heaven. But using the above rational, it would seem that we should not limit ourselves to unborn babies, but to all children. So anyone that kills a child is not guilty of murder. That doesn’t make sense.

Yes it is true that God will forgive the woman (or man if he is involved). But using that above rational, we can all go about committing crimes and breaking God’s commands because later we can just repent. It doesn’t work this way either.

 

[irishpatrick]

So is this person implying that since aborted babies go to Heaven, and since God will forgive the woman who had abortions, that abortions are okay?

Neither version of JP II’s encyclical say this. A person that knows something is sin, and does it anyways, is not going to be forgiven without a major conversion of their heart.

Yes it is true that aborted babies go to Heaven. But using the above rational, it would seem that we should not limit ourselves to unborn babies, but to all children. So anyone that kills a child is not guilty of murder. That doesn’t make sense.

Yes it is true that God will forgive the woman (or man if he is involved). But using that above rational, we can all go about committing crimes and breaking God’s commands because later we can just repent. It doesn’t work this way either.

I think I have two major points I am pursuing with this person.

1. Why does the same encyclical say two very different things?
2. Why does anyone think they can say that aborted babies go to Heaven (doesn’t the Church simply say we can hope for their salvation)?

 

[1ke]

1. Why does the same encyclical say two very different things?

Encyclicals are written in Latin, which is the official language of the Church. Whenever you are reading it in English it is a translation, which may have varying degrees of fidelity to the original Latin. The translation is only as good as the translator.

Go with what is on the Vatican site.

1. Why does anyone think they can say that aborted babies go to Heaven (doesn’t the Church simply say we can hope for their salvation)?

I don’t know the answer to that.

The Church teaching is that we can have hope. The Church cannot and does not teach anything definitive regarding the fate of the unbaptized because Christ has not revealed it.

 

[irishpatrick]

Encyclicals are written in Latin, which is the official language of the Church. Whenever you are reading it in English it is a translation, which may have varying degrees of fidelity to the original Latin. The translation is only as good as the translator.

Go with what is on the Vatican site.

I don’t know the answer to that.

The Church teaching is that we can have hope. The Church cannot and does not teach anything definitive regarding the fate of the unbaptized because Christ has not revealed it.

Thank you. It turns out that both versions are on the Vatican site…very confusing becase they say very different things.

 

[chessmane4e5]

So is this person implying that since aborted babies go to Heaven, and since God will forgive the woman who had abortions, that abortions are okay?

Neither version of JP II’s encyclical say this. A person that knows something is sin, and does it anyways, is not going to be forgiven without a major conversion of their heart.

Yes it is true that aborted babies go to Heaven. But using the above rational, it would seem that we should not limit ourselves to unborn babies, but to all children. So anyone that kills a child is not guilty of murder. That doesn’t make sense.

Yes it is true that God will forgive the woman (or man if he is involved). But using that above rational, we can all go about committing crimes and breaking God’s commands because later we can just repent. It doesn’t work this way either.

I was a little to “aggressive” with my post

It is true that we hope Christ will save the aborted babies, but we do not know.

I believe some of this idea that babies all go to Heaven came from Protestants misrepresenting the Catholic teaching. I remember a professor in college telling the entire class that the Catholic Church believed that unbaptized babies go to Hell

I almost fell out of my chair. He was a great person, but he had no clue as to what Catholics believed. I bought him a Catechism

 

[irishpatrick]

Isn’t it possible, even likely, that if we declare that aborted babies go straight to Heaven and the beatific vision, that pro-aborts will use that to convince women it is fine to abort their babies?

Further, let’s assume aborted babies do in fact go directly to Heaven and the beatific vision. Then why would abortion be an intrinsic evil and why would it be a mortal sin? Isn’t the goal of every person/soul to attain Heaven?

 

[vera_dicere]

Isn’t it possible, even likely, that if we declare that aborted babies go straight to Heaven and the beatific vision, that pro-aborts will use that to convince women it is fine to abort their babies?

Then let’s all barge over to Haiti and kill all those children who lost their parents, because surely, since children will go to Heaven, and the life they live now will be one of suffering and woe, it’d be our Christian duty to slaughter those children!

Further, let’s assume aborted babies do in fact go directly to Heaven and the beatific vision. Then why would abortion be an intrinsic evil and why would it be a mortal sin? Isn’t the goal of every person/soul to attain Heaven?

Long and short of it, its not our place to end the lives of other human beings. God made this pretty gosh darn clear.

Killing is bad. Don’t kill.

 

[Seatuck]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

 

[whatischarity]

Further, let’s assume aborted babies do in fact go directly to Heaven and the beatific vision. Then why would abortion be an intrinsic evil and why would it be a mortal sin? Isn’t the goal of every person/soul to attain Heaven?

Even if the premise were true, a desirable end still can not justify an evil means.

 

[budgie2]

If you killed me, or I killed you, perhaps we would still go to heaven and become angels. However, killing is still a mortal sin as we do not have the right to take life. It does mean that abortion can be forgiven as only God can destroy the soul, but it is a serious disobedience to God and our faith. If you need counselling then please contact me privately.