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joclucsylv
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Thank you all for your help!!
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CountrySteve
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im posting too find an answer too 
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Fink
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“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…let us run with perserverance the race that is set before us.” Hebrews 12:1 RSV-Catholic Edition
The witnesses are explained in Chapter 11. It starts with Abel, and mentions Abraham, Moses and others. The souls of these departed Old Testament martyrs and patriarchs and all of the others who died in God
Scott (Hahn) did a series of talks titled something like: “Answering Common Objections to The Catholic Faith”. One of the titles was: “The Saints: Holy Siblings”. The tape
So, the Church
That
s not always possible to have Scriptural **PROOF** of everything......thats why we have the Church; but, go to the Letter to the Hebrews, to the start of Chapter 12:“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…let us run with perserverance the race that is set before us.” Hebrews 12:1 RSV-Catholic Edition
The witnesses are explained in Chapter 11. It starts with Abel, and mentions Abraham, Moses and others. The souls of these departed Old Testament martyrs and patriarchs and all of the others who died in God
s friendship are aware of us on Earth, and the race were in. As Scott Hahn says: they`re a heavenly cheer squad. So, the Church is doing us a real favour by telling us that we can ask them to INTERCEDE for us.Scott (Hahn) did a series of talks titled something like: “Answering Common Objections to The Catholic Faith”. One of the titles was: “The Saints: Holy Siblings”. The tape
s around here, somewhere! :blush: Itd take a dig to find it!So, the Church
s Scripture-based teaching that we should pray to the saints (NT as well, of course) is arrived at indirectly; but, its based on solid ground.That
s as far as i can go: others can probably go deeper than that; and give better Scripture references. :shrug: Theres the Church`s capital T Tradition, as well.
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TimothyH
Guest
In discussing the already dead Old Testament patriarchs and prophets in Hebrews 11, Paul goes on to say…
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us (Hebrews 12:1)
If the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets are dead and in heaven, and are witnesses of our behavior, to whom do they testify? My guess is that since they are in heaven, they testify to God.
The idea of witnesses and communion of the siants flows from the doctrine of the Body of Christ. Members of the Body of Christ pray for each other and those in heaven do not stop being members of Christ’s Body just because they have died. If anything, they are more united to Christ and so are members of Christ’s Body moreso than we who are alive are.
And nowhere in the Bible does it say that the dead can’t hear our prayers. In fact, the Bible is full of angels hearing our prayers, so why should we believe that the spirts of the dead in heaven cannot also hear our prayers. The angels rejoice over one repentant sinner but the saints are oblivious? It doesn’t make sense.
Catholicism is not the religion of “scriptural proof” becase we know that the Church and her practices existed for many years prior to even a single word of the New Testament being written.
It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, 14 and we know that his testimony is true. There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. (John 21:24-25)
The Bible does not contain everything Christian - it tells us so. The earliest Christians were willing to die in order to retrieve the bones of some of the martyrs and that is historical fact. What’s all that about? Some people seem to think that they were all stupid back then because they couldn’t read scripture on an iPad or something.
-Tim-
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us (Hebrews 12:1)
If the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets are dead and in heaven, and are witnesses of our behavior, to whom do they testify? My guess is that since they are in heaven, they testify to God.
The idea of witnesses and communion of the siants flows from the doctrine of the Body of Christ. Members of the Body of Christ pray for each other and those in heaven do not stop being members of Christ’s Body just because they have died. If anything, they are more united to Christ and so are members of Christ’s Body moreso than we who are alive are.
And nowhere in the Bible does it say that the dead can’t hear our prayers. In fact, the Bible is full of angels hearing our prayers, so why should we believe that the spirts of the dead in heaven cannot also hear our prayers. The angels rejoice over one repentant sinner but the saints are oblivious? It doesn’t make sense.
Catholicism is not the religion of “scriptural proof” becase we know that the Church and her practices existed for many years prior to even a single word of the New Testament being written.
It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, 14 and we know that his testimony is true. There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. (John 21:24-25)
The Bible does not contain everything Christian - it tells us so. The earliest Christians were willing to die in order to retrieve the bones of some of the martyrs and that is historical fact. What’s all that about? Some people seem to think that they were all stupid back then because they couldn’t read scripture on an iPad or something.
-Tim-
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Fink
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PS
Ran out of edit time!
Don
Some of Scott`s recordings, along with a lot of other good apologetics stuff, are available from St. Joseph Communications in California:
saintjoe.com/
PPS
The ones in heaven are The Church Triumphant. (Expanding on Timothy)
Ran out of edit time!
Don
t forget that the Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written; so, theres ORAL Tradition (capital T).Some of Scott`s recordings, along with a lot of other good apologetics stuff, are available from St. Joseph Communications in California:
saintjoe.com/
PPS
The ones in heaven are The Church Triumphant. (Expanding on Timothy)
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joclucsylv
Guest
Thank You my friend!!
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Jesus_123
Guest
+Jesus . . . our . . . Blessed Lord Himself . . . introduced the incredible . . . holy blessing of the heavenly reality . . . of the ability of those of us here on earth to commune and interact with those holy souls who have gone on before us . . . and Peter, James and John were . . . introduced to . . . and experienced . . . this holy prayerful . . . Communion of the Saints . . . first hand . . . as companions of our **Lord **on the Holy Mount of Transfiguration:
The Holy :bible1: Bible
[1] And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: [2] And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. [3] And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. [4] And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. [5] And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him. [6] And the disciples hearing, fell upon their face, and were very much afraid. [7] And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them, Arise, and fear not. [8] And they lifting up their eyes saw no one but only Jesus. [9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead. - Matthew 17:1-9
Prior to this time there are many interactions between holy angels and mankind recorded in the Old :bible1: Testament . . . and of course the two extraordinary prayerful holy conversations of the holy archangel St. Gabriel in the New :bible1: Testament . . .[1] And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: [2] And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. [3] And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. [4] And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. [5] And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him. [6] And the disciples hearing, fell upon their face, and were very much afraid. [7] And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them, Arise, and fear not. [8] And they lifting up their eyes saw no one but only Jesus. [9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead. - Matthew 17:1-9
:bible1: [11] And there appeared to him an angel :angel1: of the Lord, standing on the right side of the alter of incense. [12] And Zachary seeing him, was troubled, and fear fell upon him. [13] But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John: [14] And thou shalt have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice in his nativity. [15] For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. … [19] And the angel answering, said to him: I am Gabriel, who stand before God: and am sent to speak to thee, and to bring thee these good tidings. - Luke 1:11-15, 19
:bible1: And in the sixth month, the angel :angel1: Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the** Lord** is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. [31] **Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the **Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] And Mary said to the angel :angel1:: How shall this be done, because I know not man? [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. [36] And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: [37] Because no word shall be impossible with God. [38] And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. - Luke 1:26-38
. . . all for Jesus+
thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
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pablope
Guest
First, let me clarify your post header…I think you are asking for biblical proof of the intercession of the saints…not that we “should” but we can ask for their intercession.
Read Revelations chapt 4 to 8 but here are excerpts:
REv 5:
8 When He had taken the [h]book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the *saints.
Rev 8:
3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might [a]add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, [c]with the prayers of the [d]saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.*
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Regarding asking another to intercede for us, I would reference Job 42:7-8
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Mintaka
Guest
St. Jerome’s book, Against Vigilantius, has some scriptural analogies you might find useful:
“A single man, Moses, often wins pardon from God for six hundred thousand armed men; and Stephen, the follower of his Lord and the first Christian martyr, entreats pardon for his persecutors – and when once they have entered on their life with Christ, shall they have less power than before? The Apostle Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were given to him in the ship – and when, after his dissolution, he has begun to be with Christ, must he shut his mouth, and be unable to say a word for those who throughout the whole world have believed in his Gospel?”
“A single man, Moses, often wins pardon from God for six hundred thousand armed men; and Stephen, the follower of his Lord and the first Christian martyr, entreats pardon for his persecutors – and when once they have entered on their life with Christ, shall they have less power than before? The Apostle Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were given to him in the ship – and when, after his dissolution, he has begun to be with Christ, must he shut his mouth, and be unable to say a word for those who throughout the whole world have believed in his Gospel?”
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paul1234
Guest
I am just a nobody, I am a sinner, god hates sin he wants us to also hate it,
We are blind to sin, when it happens we do not recognize it,
As somebody was talking to me I could hear arrogance come from people, I have never heard that before, out the mouth speaks the heart spitefulness, rudeness, selfishness etc… It sounded so evil to my ears it was like listening to little Satans and I wondered how evil do I sound to god when he hears me?
out the mouth speaks the heart
When somebody is now talking to me I try and spot the different type of sin coming out of there mouths, somebody being rude, selfish, hateful, spiteful, resentful, arrogant jealous, vengeful, sarcasm, boastful, resentful, etc… that’s Satan ways it is called sin.
*Once I could spot other people sin when they’re talking, I could spot it in myself.
I will repent to God of my sin asking God to change me I will not have Satan character imprinted on me.
Gift of love
Through prayer and commitment I will become this person here ,Love is always patient and kind, it is never jealous, love is never boastful or conceited, it is never rude or selfish, it does not take offense or store up grievances, and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people’s sins but delights in the truth, it is always ready to excuse, trust, hope, and endure whatever comes. Love does not come to an end, god is changing us transforming us to be more and more like Jesus. We are his children
I am a catholic, My mother just come back from Ireland One night I was asleep in bed I stopped breather I was trying to breath and I couldn’t then I just fainted I believe I died for a short time next thing I knew I was floating up by the ceiling my mother use to keep the hall light on as secuierty measure my bedroom door had glass at the top half I watch my mother walk down the hall way use the toilet then went back to bed as I am watching my self sleep I realized on the bed it was just my shall the real me was floating up by that ceiling after observing myself for a few minutes I Became afraid I thought to my self I must have just died im only age nineteen I started saying the lords prayer I only knew half of it I was trying so hard to think what the other half is I got pulled away quickley from the bedroom shooting up wards traveling at great speed the brightness shining which journeyed with me
I had my eyes closed tightly I could see through my eyes lids just saw white then the brightness went away then I stopped, this place it’s so high up it frightened me opened my eyes feeling afraid when my eyes were opened I was no longer afraid, I am in the shy observing blue and white sky the shy was manly blue I could see somebody from a distant coming over to me I knew who it was when they came closer it was the mother of Jesus-Christ Mary came to me standing on the globe with her arms and hands stretched out to me the Vail that hung down from both her arms her arms looked heavy, her face was pale
She was Dressed in colour royal blue vale from head to toe the material was silk, she was shinning and had a strip coming down from her neck to her waist pure white, she never moved her lips she spoke into me and said God is with you, she went to the left of me I turn around slowly I saw the back of her she disappeared in to a white cloud then I woke up out my sleep
We are blind to sin, when it happens we do not recognize it,
As somebody was talking to me I could hear arrogance come from people, I have never heard that before, out the mouth speaks the heart spitefulness, rudeness, selfishness etc… It sounded so evil to my ears it was like listening to little Satans and I wondered how evil do I sound to god when he hears me?
out the mouth speaks the heart
When somebody is now talking to me I try and spot the different type of sin coming out of there mouths, somebody being rude, selfish, hateful, spiteful, resentful, arrogant jealous, vengeful, sarcasm, boastful, resentful, etc… that’s Satan ways it is called sin.
*Once I could spot other people sin when they’re talking, I could spot it in myself.
I will repent to God of my sin asking God to change me I will not have Satan character imprinted on me.
Gift of love
Through prayer and commitment I will become this person here ,Love is always patient and kind, it is never jealous, love is never boastful or conceited, it is never rude or selfish, it does not take offense or store up grievances, and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people’s sins but delights in the truth, it is always ready to excuse, trust, hope, and endure whatever comes. Love does not come to an end, god is changing us transforming us to be more and more like Jesus. We are his children
I am a catholic, My mother just come back from Ireland One night I was asleep in bed I stopped breather I was trying to breath and I couldn’t then I just fainted I believe I died for a short time next thing I knew I was floating up by the ceiling my mother use to keep the hall light on as secuierty measure my bedroom door had glass at the top half I watch my mother walk down the hall way use the toilet then went back to bed as I am watching my self sleep I realized on the bed it was just my shall the real me was floating up by that ceiling after observing myself for a few minutes I Became afraid I thought to my self I must have just died im only age nineteen I started saying the lords prayer I only knew half of it I was trying so hard to think what the other half is I got pulled away quickley from the bedroom shooting up wards traveling at great speed the brightness shining which journeyed with me
I had my eyes closed tightly I could see through my eyes lids just saw white then the brightness went away then I stopped, this place it’s so high up it frightened me opened my eyes feeling afraid when my eyes were opened I was no longer afraid, I am in the shy observing blue and white sky the shy was manly blue I could see somebody from a distant coming over to me I knew who it was when they came closer it was the mother of Jesus-Christ Mary came to me standing on the globe with her arms and hands stretched out to me the Vail that hung down from both her arms her arms looked heavy, her face was pale
She was Dressed in colour royal blue vale from head to toe the material was silk, she was shinning and had a strip coming down from her neck to her waist pure white, she never moved her lips she spoke into me and said God is with you, she went to the left of me I turn around slowly I saw the back of her she disappeared in to a white cloud then I woke up out my sleep
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jimtheplumber
Guest
My wife asked me over and over again why should we ask people and saints to pray for us, you should go streight to Jesus she would say.
look at the search engine Praying to the Saints it helped me alot.
look at the search engine Praying to the Saints it helped me alot.
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SnakeMauler
Guest
proof of every catholic belief.
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Crumpy
Guest
You may read the two posts in a thread I started the other day, here
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=582167
This book shows what tradition is and why you should have absolute confidence in it.
Alternately, it shows why you should not be mislead by any Protestant claim against the Church, any complaints about Catholics and statues, praying for the dead, etc.
the NT shows that Jesus created a church and gave it its marching orders. The NT goes on about the subject of appointing faithful bishops who will pass on (tradition) what they have received. It is the apostolic succession that has been and still is our certainty of Divine presence and inspiration and infallibility in the one and only Church of Jesus Christ, the Roman Catholic Church. That’s it and you’d better believe it.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=582167
This book shows what tradition is and why you should have absolute confidence in it.
Alternately, it shows why you should not be mislead by any Protestant claim against the Church, any complaints about Catholics and statues, praying for the dead, etc.
- you should read Tradition and the Church by Msgr George Agius,on the general subject of tradition in the Church.
- Perhaps you should look around at some of the preceding posts and their links, which explain Catholic practice.
the NT shows that Jesus created a church and gave it its marching orders. The NT goes on about the subject of appointing faithful bishops who will pass on (tradition) what they have received. It is the apostolic succession that has been and still is our certainty of Divine presence and inspiration and infallibility in the one and only Church of Jesus Christ, the Roman Catholic Church. That’s it and you’d better believe it.
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dsmantz
Guest
Here’s an interesting twist on it:
When Sts. Paul and Peter walked through the streets, people bowed to the, begging that even their shadow would pass over them and make them well. The begged for healing from the saints, and asked for their intercession and help.
How’s that any different than asking someone from the Church Triumphant? Pair Acts of the Apostles with the other scriptural references given above, and you’ll be set for one heck on an argument.
When Sts. Paul and Peter walked through the streets, people bowed to the, begging that even their shadow would pass over them and make them well. The begged for healing from the saints, and asked for their intercession and help.
How’s that any different than asking someone from the Church Triumphant? Pair Acts of the Apostles with the other scriptural references given above, and you’ll be set for one heck on an argument.
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joclucsylv
Guest
Where would that scripture be? Thanks!
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pablope
Guest
This is in Acts…and I think it was only St. Peter. Look under Acts 5.
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Matorin
Guest
To answer the original poster, there is nothing except in 2 Mac that explicitly talks about prayer to the dead being a good thing, and nothing post-resurrection. Everything talked about here is expounding “but doesn’t it make sense that…” That doesn’t mean it’s not acceptable or even laudable. It’s just that there is no direct proof in the Scriptures.
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Big_Dummy
Guest
at the very least angels according to the book of Job visit heaven daily. We have guardian angels, so it is possible that our guardian angel could make a side visit of loved ones in heaven to let them know how to pray.
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