Help talking to an agnostic

[dymphnadancer]

New here; hello all and thanks for any help you can offer. I am attempting to defend Catholics as something other than the helpless, un-thinking, non-rational children that one agnostic has claimed we are. I say “we” as this was a family e-mail list of about 25 people who are mostly Catholic-but-uncatechized. I had a strong sense that if I didn’t speak up, there would be many on that list who would think, “Yeah, he’s got a point.” I’m an orthodox Catholic, but I don’t really know the best way to say the right things. And so that’s why I’m here! I’d think this would be easy for some of you and I appreciate any responses.

In his first email, he kept saying that he “didn’t need any priest or church to tell him how to live morally, and there are a lot more than 10 commandments that you need to live morally if only we’d think about it.”

So I simply calmly asked: Then were do you get your moral code from? (Thinking I could perhaps eventually show him that one he gets from making things up as he goes along doesn’t really work). And his answer was:

“One needs no “code” to act in a moral way. One only needs a desire to act in a moral way. Surely, you know what is moral and what isn’t. Well, so do I. Morality comes from within and from kindness,rationality and humanism. It’s not complex. No thinking person who wants to conduct her/his life in a moral way needs any direction from third parties or “codes.” Many religions do pretty well in terms of kindness and humanism but fall apart when it comes to rationality.”

Now, what’s the best way to answer this, do you think?

 

[Maranatha]

I think the root cause of the problem may be, and usually is, the non-religious person thinks they are basically a good person. They compare themselves to other people who do some horrible things and say “I’m not so bad.” The problem is they don’t compare themselves to God. God is perfect and we are not. We perfectly fail. We are not good people when compared to God. As Catholics, we believe that nothing perfect will enter heaven and we, out of love, need to be concerned with these people.

We could start by pointing out areas of agreement. The Catholic Church agrees that morality is “written on our hearts.” Religion is a support and teaching mechanism. Most religions, especially the big religions, teach very similar moral precepts. Since we perfectly fail, some times and some religions are self-deceptive and can’t recognize moral failings for what they are.

One strategy to bring these type of people around is to find out what is the center of the their lives. If it’s not God, what is it? If God is not the center of their life, whatever it is will eventually fail to make them happy because nothing but God is not perfect.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

I highly recomend your first read (& digest ) Peter Kreeft’s **A Refutation of Moral Relativism: Interviews With an Absolutist **

---

amazon.com/Refutation-Moral-Relativism-Interviews-Absolutist/dp/0898707315/sr=8-8/qid=1168547747/ref=pd_bbs_8/104-5832727-0043957?ie=UTF8&s=books

and also CS Lewis"s The Abolition of Man

Those under your belt will give you a lot firmer grounding to discusssing “values” and ethics with your friend

(Me, a former gutless atheist (agnostic), by Grace of God, a Catholic “revert”)

 

[ribozyme]

So I simply calmly asked: Then were do you get your moral code from? (Thinking I could perhaps eventually show him that one he gets from making things up as he goes along doesn’t really work). And his answer was:

“One needs no “code” to act in a moral way. One only needs a desire to act in a moral way. Surely, you know what is moral and what isn’t. Well, so do I. Morality comes from within and from kindness,rationality and humanism. It’s not complex. No thinking person who wants to conduct her/his life in a moral way needs any direction from third parties or “codes.” Many religions do pretty well in terms of kindness and humanism but fall apart when it comes to rationality.”

Now, what’s the best way to answer this, do you think?

He sounds like a Kantian…

 

[Crumpy]

You may have your hands full. Try to narrow down a point or two.

The Church attempts to follow Jesus’ command to teach all nations. The Church has both the means to do this and the desire to help people form the correct conscience for living.

The Second Vatican Council defined the mission of the priest as “urgently bringing men to Jesus Christ.”

The fundamental words of Jesus are to taste and see, to repent and believe. This is elaborated greatly in the Bible and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

As people, we always have norms and standards outside of ourselves, as in governments, society, and religion. Anyone who rejects all of those standards, is rejecting those aspects of society – and that happens.

Remember, it is not up to you to convert or “save” this fellow. That is up to God. It is up to you to be a witness for the faith.

I asked a priest who was my high school teacher, why he believed. He said he didn’t know. I think everyone should have a better answer than that, and catechesis is the answer. This fellow will probably be around for years, so take your time in answering him. ‘Work out your own salvation’ first and be an example to him – be the salt of the earth and the light shining on the hill – neither of which make any noise, in and of themselves. His logic crumbles on itself, so don’t be overwhelmed.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

The agnostic’s position is not logically defensible. From uncertainty one does not derive certainty. The agnostic says we cannot know for sure if God exists. Then he turns around and lives his life as though he is certain God does not exist, and joins the atheist in knocking down the idea of God as well as the existence of God by accusing theists of being simple-minded, weak, gullible creatures who need the God-crutch. You will find this recurrent theme in the writings of **all **of the atheists and agnostics.

The agnostic is certainly filled with certainty, I’d say.