Help The unpardon sin issue

[Spyridon]

like to think if there was any possible way for God to forgive Judas, He did so. We will only find this out if we make it to Heaven ourselves.

I dunno, that’s dangerous territory to tread IMO…

A lot of Church Fathers said Judas was in hell…

The problem with saying that Judas is not in hell, is it opens the door to universal salvation - if even Judas is in heaven, how could anyone be condemned to hell?

Personally, I feel 99.9% confident that Judas, Nero, and Hitler are at least 3 people who are burning in hell now and for eternity.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We do not know if these people had mental illnesses or some other issue. It’s for God to judge.

I accept the teachings of the Church that officially canonized saints are in Heaven and that Mary was assumed into Heaven. Other than that, I have no idea who might be in heaven or hell and I don’t presume.

 

[Spyridon]

Pope St. Leo the Great taught that Judas was in hell:

"The traitor Judas did not attain to this mercy, for the son of perdition (Jn. 17:12), at whose right hand the devil had stood (Ps. 108:6), had before this died in despair; even while Christ was fulfilling the mystery of the general redemption. Even he perhaps might have obtained this forgiveness, had he not hastened to the gallowstree; for the Lord died for all evildoers. But nothing ever of the warnings of the Saviour’s mercy found place in that wicked heart: at one time given over to petty cheating, and then committed to this dread parricidal traffic. … The godless betrayer, shutting his mind to all these things [expressions of the Lord’s mercy], turned upon himself, not with a mind to repent, but in the madness of self-destruction: so that this man who had sold the Author of life to the executioners of His death, even in the act of dying sinned unto the increase of his own eternal punishment. (Sermon 62, De passione Domini XI [PL 54], in The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, vol. 2, p. 183)

St. Catherine of Siena also taught Judas went to hell:

"This is the sin which is never forgiven, now or ever: the refusal, the scorning, of my mercy. For this offends me more than all the other sins they have committed. So the despair of Judas displeased me more and was a greater insult to my Son than his betrayal had been. Therefore, such as these are reproved for this false judgment of considering their sin to be greater than my mercy, and for this they are punished with the demons and tortured eternally with them." (The Dialogue, n. 37, Paulist ed., p. 79)

Note in Catherine’s it’s actually Jesus Himself saying Judas is in hell.

So while it’s true that the Church has never infallible decreed a “reverse canonization” saying anyone is in hell, there is a long tradition in the Church of saying Judas is in hell.

Personally, I’ll wager with the great Saints and Doctors of the Church Leo and Catherine and believe Judas is in hell, rather than believe Judas could be in heaven which heavily implies universal salvation, a condemned heresy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, and it is fine for Catholics to believe that if they choose. But Pope Leo and Catherine of Siena do not have certain knowledge of who is in heaven or in hell, and the Church to my knowledge does not take an official position on “who’s in Hell” besides Satan and his demons being there.

So again, we just don’t know for sure.

 

[Spyridon]

So again, we just don’t know for sure.

St. Catherine’s statement was actually Jesus talking to her.

That’s pretty reassuring to me that a Saint and Doctor of the Church wrote that Jesus himself told her Judas was in hell…

 

[Tis_Bearself]

St. Catherine’s statement was actually Jesus talking to her.

That’s pretty reassuring to me that a Saint and Doctor of the Church wrote that Jesus himself told her Judas was in hell…

Once again, you are permitted to believe this, but it is a private revelation, and Catholics are not required to believe in private revelations to saints.

 

[Spyridon]

So again, we just don’t know for sure.

See now that’s where I have to object.

If Judas isn’t in hell, then that essentially means all people are saved.

Judas committed the absolute worst sin in all of human history and didn’t repent.

If he is saved anyway, then universal salvation is true… But it can’t be true because it’s a condemned heresy.

Sts. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Ephrem the Syrian all taught Judas was in hell too.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If Judas isn’t in hell, then that essentially means all people are saved.

Judas committed the absolute worst sin in all of human history and didn’t repent.

No, it doesn’t mean or imply anything of the kind.

We also do not know who committed “the worst sin in human history”. Someone could have privately committed the most horrible sin ever in the eyes of God, out of the public eye, or lost to time because all historical records were destroyed, and we never even heard about it.

 

[Spyridon]

No, it doesn’t mean or imply anything of the kind.

We also do not know who committed “the worst sin in human history”. Someone could have privately committed the most horrible sin ever in the eyes of God, out of the public eye, or lost to time because all historical records were destroyed, and we never even heard about it.

We’re just not seeing eye to eye here Bear… Because I again object to everything you just wrote.

It certainly does imply such a thing.

Also, betraying the Son of Man himself is the worst sin - let me say something hyperbolic which I’m sure will offend some.

Add up the sinfulness of every death of World War II including the Holocaust and times it by a million. It’s still a mere venial sin compared to betraying the blood of the Son of Man.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Let us agree to disagree.

We have no “need to know” about the ultimate fate of strangers to us. We should focus simply on keeping ourselves out of Hell and on track to Heaven, and helping anyone else who we can help to get there.

 

[Spyridon]

The last thing I’ll leave here @Tis_Bearself, I’ve showed a consistent tradition in the Church from Popes and Saints and Doctors showing that Judas is in hell.

Can you provide any Patristic or Doctoral arguments for believing Judas may have been saved?

 

[bruce3]

Jesus the final Word said blaspheming( Greek hurling an imprecation) the Person of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven in this life or the next one. Mark 3:22-30.
Note Jesus says in v.28 ALL sins and blasphemy’s will be forgiven which matches to Johns “The blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses( Greek continues to always cleanse) us from ALL ( Greek every single sin) sin.”I Jn.1:7
If a person charges the Holy Spirit directly with evil or makes and directs the charge of evil it is blasphemous (in Greek) and at that point receives no forgiveness. This would be someone who has knowledge of the Spirit yet says that His work is of the Devil,as did the knowledgeable Pharisees.

We should accept and receive Jesus as Savior Lord and God He is our only Deliverier.

 

[Latetotheparty]

If you think your judgement might be awkward, it’s nothing compared to Judas’s.

I think the problem is that for Judas one sin led on to another. He betrayed the Son of Man and he repented but not towards God. He despaired of God and thus hung himself.

Would Jesus have forgiven him? I believe he would have after a fashion. Judas never allowed himself to seek that forgiveness.

Is he in hell? We can’t say. You might say that his mental health was a factor as he obviously wasn’t thinking straight.

 

[Gab123]

am so anxious in spreading the gospel that I am in distress about it even though I know it is good and right to spread it, I want to.

Here’s a good video on how to go about spreading the gospel:

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Of course I can’t, Spyridon. I am not a theologian. I am a bear.

Until the Magisterium issues some teaching in the Catechism stating so-and-so is in Hell, I am free to hope in the face of thousands of theologians and private revelations on behalf of so-and-so.

The Magisterium is unlikely to do such a thing, because there is no teaching where we have certainty that particular souls of humans are in Hell.
We can rely on Canonization for the Vatican to tell us, with certainty, that particular souls of humans are definitely in Heaven, but we do not have a “reverse canonization” where the Vatican tells us, with certainty, that particular souls of humans are definitely in Hell.

The Vatican teaches with certainty that the Devil and demons are in Hell…but they are not human.

So you are free to believe that Judas, Hitler, Nero, etc. are all burning in Hell, and marshal all the teachings of the Church Fathers that you like, and I am free to hope that they aren’t, and even pray for their souls. Which I have done.

 

[OneSheep]

See now that’s where I have to object.

If Judas isn’t in hell, then that essentially means all people are saved.

Judas committed the absolute worst sin in all of human history and didn’t repent.

If he is saved anyway, then universal salvation is true… But it can’t be true because it’s a condemned heresy.

Sts. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Ephrem the Syrian all taught Judas was in hell too.

Hi Spyridon,

I think that what you are bringing forth here is pertinent to this thread, because in effect everyone has their own sense, their own criteria, of what is “unpardonable”.

For example, do you understand Judas? Why would you do exactly what Judas did?

 

[thistle]

I am scared I have committed the unpardonable sin as I was so anxious to be open to my faith with people that I struggled to speak. I was afraid of people and what they would think of me despite my pursuing of my faith. please help me. especially since Jesus said Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels -Luke 9:26. I am so anxious in spreading the gospel that I am in distress about it even though I know it is good and right to spread it, I want to. please help!

Assuming you are still alive and not contacting us from Hell then you have not committed the pardonable sin!