Help! Verse-taking out of context! Is Jesus God?

[Sacramentalist]

Dear friends:

An acquaintance of mine, a Unitarian, has brought Hosea 11 up as a proof that Jesus is not God. For in it, God says:

Hosea 11:9 “I will not execute the fierceness of My anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim. For I am God, and not man, the Holy One in your midst; and I will not come with terror.”

I reply that: “Your objection based on those Old Testament texts is silly, since they were made before the Incarnation, before which time God the Son had assumed a human nature.”

To which he replies:

Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my Son.” (verse referenced by Matt 2:15, contextually fulfilled by the fact that Christ was in Egypt after he was born for a time). Notice, at the beginning of Hosea 11, God has in the past tense ‘called’ His Son out of Egypt - which event occurred after you claim God had assumed the nature of man. Obviously, then, by verse 9, we are still in a prophetic tense beyond the ‘incarnation’, not before.

Even Peter claims in his first epistle (1:10) “Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully…to them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the holy spirit sent from heaven–”

The prophets were not writing in reference to their own time; they were writing in reference to ours - as established by the Apostle Peter, as well as fulfilled prophecy not more than 9 verses before God is portrayed as not man.

This seems so rediculous . . . but how do I answer this specific objection?

Anyone?!

 

[Anonymous_1]

Collosians 1:15

Christ Is Supreme

15Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation.

Matthew 9:2
2Some people brought to him a paralyzed man on a mat. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “Take heart, son! Your sins are forgiven.”

3"Blasphemy! This man talks like he is God!" some of the teachers of religious law said among themselves. 4Jesus knew what they were thinking, so he asked them, “Why are you thinking such evil thoughts? 5Is it easier to say, Your sins are forgiven' or Get up and walk’? 6I will prove that I, the Son of Man, have the authority on earth to forgive sins.” Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, take your mat, and go on home, because you are healed!”

John 8:58
So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him

Note that I Am is the name that God attributed to Himself to Moses. Jews wouldn’t even speak such a name because of their great reverence and for fear that they would be interpreted as calling themselves God. The reason the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus was because they understood exactly what Jesus was trying to say. He indeed was True God.

Hebrews 1
3The Son reflects God’s own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven.
.quote]
…

to his Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
Your royal power is expressed in righteousness.

If your friend wants to quote from the OT, fromt he prophetic texts that speak of the Messiah, If Jesus is indeed the Messiah, then He these names are attributable to Him.

Isaiah 9:6
6For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. And the government will rest on his shoulders. These will be his royal titles: Wonderful Counselor,a] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Lastly, If Jesus wasn’t God then His atoning sacrifice was not atoning at all.

 

[Anonymous_1]

well in Hosea 1:1 not only is this verse an allusion and prophecy to Christ, it also refers BACKWARD to when God called His people out of Egypt…

does any of this help?

 

[mlchance]

What were the Apostle Thomas’s words to Jesus when he saw him after the Resurrection? Did Jesus rebuke him for those words?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Anonymous_1]

great reply!!

 

[richbansha]

Sacramentalist:

This seems so rediculous . . . but how do I answer this specific objection?

Anyone?!

Well, you said it yourself. It is ridiculous. Go ahead and ridicule him – in a good natured and playful way of course. No sense in hurting his feelings or making him feel stupid. We want to win him over, not insult him. Shake your head and chuckle a little first.

Tell him: What? Did you have merde for breakfast or something? If you can show me where Peter names this particular verse and uses it to deny that Jesus is God, then you are telling me something. Ephraim? Hosea? For pity sakes! That’s the problem with you pagans. You go around trying to Jewify everything, when the apostles are trying to get people to do just the opposite. Use your head!

 

[Anonymous_1]

richbansha:

Well, you said it yourself. It is ridiculous. Go ahead and ridicule him – in a good natured and playful way of course. No sense in hurting his feelings or making him feel stupid. We want to win him over, not insult him. Shake your head and chuckle a little first.

Tell him: What? Did you have merde for breakfast or something? If you can show me where Peter names this particular verse and uses it to deny that Jesus is God, then you are telling me something. Ephraim? Hosea? For pity sakes! That’s the problem with you pagans. You go around trying to Jewify everything, when the apostles are trying to get people to do just the opposite. Use your head!

interesting…not necesarily the approach that i would use but itneresting.
lol

 

[Strider]

Try John 10: 22-30
Especially verse 30. After talking about the lack of faith of the Jews, Jesus finishes with, “I and the Father are one.”

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

These texts are simply saying that God is not a created being, not human. These texts are NOT saying that God will NOT incarnate as a man.

 

[thistle]

John 1:1 and 14.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”

“**And the Word became flesh ** and made his dwelling among us”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Try a totally new approach. Tell him we are all gods and see what he thinks. Christ reiterated the OT scriptures, as far as I can tell, and intimated that we are all gods, himself being one of them. ( Psalms 82:6 ) He didn’t actually say that, but he echoed the scripture where God called an entire group “gods.”
John 10:

30 The Father and I are one." 31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”** 33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” 34 15** Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated 16 and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

It sounds to me here almost that Christ’s words would defend me referring to myself as “a god” at least, not necessarily “the” God.

When I first heard this I was shocked because I’ve never heard Catholics talk this way (they seem timid to acknowledge that they have anything divine about them) so maybe you’ll get his attention. Rather than defending against his point, raise it to a new level and challenge him to believe that he is a god. Let him try defending against that!

Alan