Help w/ transubstanciation

[Church_Militant]

Well you see, the New Testament hadn’t been written yet, so some of the early church fathers can be excused from not understanding it the way many of today’s ministers do, I am not blaming them, just pointing out the obvious.
As for the rest, they were too busy being martyred to actually have time to really read the New Testament, and fully understand it like my pastor does. Again I am not blaming them, I am just pointing out what is obvious to me.

That’s your answer? That makes virtually no sense and is not supported by the writings of the early church.

This also brings up another flaw in your belief system. If faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, making the Bible necessary to salvation, and these believers didn’t have a complete New Testament, yet were faithful believers and even martyrs, then the doctrine that the Bible alone is all one needs is proved an error.

 

[BeeSweet]

1 Timothy 3:15 The church of the Living God is the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[Johenz]

They didn’t, that is why even though they might have some insights, they were not 100 % on their teaching, unlike teachers like my pastor and James White.

So, St John, who wrote a Gospel, the Book of Revelation, and two epistles may “have some insights” from what they learned directly from the mouth of Our Lord, but because it wasn’t written on paper, bound in leather, with gilt pages, he was not 100% on his teaching, is that correct?

 

[savedsinner]

1 Timothy 3:15 The church of the Living God is the pillar and foundation of truth.

And the truth is the Bible, this passage is telling us that the church is subject to the bible. It must support it, not contadict it.

 

[savedsinner]

So, St John, who wrote a Gospel, the Book of Revelation, and two epistles may “have some insights” from what they learned directly from the mouth of Our Lord, but because it wasn’t written on paper, bound in leather, with gilt pages, he was not 100% on his teaching, is that correct?

No, because when he was writing the Holy Spirit was guiding his pen. Other that that he wasn’t 100 % on his teaching.
If John was 100% then he would not have asked Jesus who would be the greatest in heaven, now would he?

 

[Church_Militant]

I have to say my church teaches something else, and my pastor went to seminary.

And you believe it? Even when I show you that the Word of God does not say what they have taught you that it does?:bigyikes:

I listen to these men because they have dedicated their lifes for the truth.
And I only listen to the truth.

If you say so… but I have already refuted their teachings and you have no answer aside from relying on these teachings of men…even in the face of the fact that I have shown you “plain and simple” that they are teaching you in direct contradiction to the Word of God?

I thought you were a Bible believing Christian? Who do you believe? The New Testament or your pastor, his teachers, his seminary, James White, his teachers, and his seminary?

I think you have a real serious problem and need to get the facts and decide for yourself.

 

[Johenz]

And the truth is the Bible, this passage is telling us that the church is subject to the bible. It must support it, not contadict it.

That’s not the way it works, junior. Jesus Christ gave us the Church, the Church gave us the Bible.

 

[savedsinner]

Well, I guess this is enough saving souls and spreading truth for one night, I will try to post on a regular basis here, so you all can be exposed to the truth.
I have to get up early for church, we will be talking about Mary worship tomorrow.
Have a great night.

 

[Church_Militant]

And the truth is the Bible, this passage is telling us that the church is subject to the bible. It must support it, not contadict it.

Where is that in that passage?

Here’s the verse.“15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1st Timothy 3:15)

Where do you see anything that says what you have asserted?

It’s not there…

 

[Church_Militant]

Well, I guess this is enough saving souls and spreading truth for one night, I will try to post on a regular basis here, so you all can be exposed to the truth.
I have to get up early for church, we will be talking about Mary worship tomorrow.
Have a great night.

Not on this thread we won’t.

This one is about the Eucharist… you wanna allege that we worship Mary, knock yourself out, but as per the Forum Rules, you’ll need to open a new thread to do so.

DISCUSSION FORUMS

1. Messages posted to threads should be on-topic. If you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread.

 

[Johenz]

Thos one’s a piece or work.

 

[Church_Militant]

Thos one’s a piece or work.

:yup:

 

[Todd_Easton]

… the bible prohibits the drinking of blood. And God would not ask you to sin.

Jesus Christ abolished all previous food and drink prohibitions:14And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.” 16And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 17And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, 18since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 19And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. 20For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, 21coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 22All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.” (Mark 7:14-22)Likewise, St. Paul says:
17For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; (Romans 14:17)

 

[NoelFitz]

In a previous post I wrote:

*Q: Where can I find scriptural proof or transubstanciation?
A: nowhere.

There is no proof of transubstanciation = transubstantiation
in scripture. In fact there is no proof of it anywhere. If one believes in transubstantiation, the belief is based on faith.*

I do not think anyone has clearly answered me.

Am I correct in what I wrote?

There is no proof of transubstantiation in the Bible.

The theory of transubstantiation is a theory which may explain (chemical) change.

The Bible writers had no knowledge of transubstantiation.

Through faith we believe that bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Johenz]

We have the words of Christ at the Institution of the Eucharist,"This is my body…this is** my blood. Not “this means my body…this means my blood.”

The words of Paul warning against defiling the “body and blood.”

We have the Paschal sacrifice, the unblemished lamb, which was sacrificed, then eaten. Not symbolically eaten, but literally consumed. And we have the Paschal sacrifice of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ, the unblemished Lamb of God, who in John, chapter 6 tells us exactly what the Eucharist entails.

We don’t believe the bread and wine become His Body and Blood, Our Lord tells us explicitly that the Eucharist becomes His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.**

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, I guess this is enough saving souls and spreading truth for one night, I will try to post on a regular basis here, so you all can be exposed to the truth.
I have to get up early for church, we will be talking about Mary worship tomorrow.
Have a great night.

OK, savedsinner, I’m the guy who laughed at you in the first place. Please note, it was at your post, not at your faith. Although I’m still on the limb about where you are coming from (whether you are truly sincere, or whether you are deliberately trying to bait us - and I’m leaning toward the latter…), I’ll try not to laugh at you.

Well, at least til I got to the “they ate crackers and drank the juice” line.

P.S. Notice, I’m laughing at the line, not at your faith! Carry on and enjoy your Church Service and pay very close attention when your Pastor tells you about the evils of Mary Worship. We’ll be anxiously awaiting your posts!!!

P.S.S. Note, I’m giving your Pastor’s religious theology about the same respect that you are giving the 2000 year theology of the Catholic Church. Your pastor ought to be honored.

 

[NotWorthy]

We have the words of Christ at the Institution of the Eucharist,"This is my body…this is**** my blood. Not “this means my body…this means my blood.”

The words of Paul warning against defiling the “body and blood.”

We have the Paschal sacrifice, the unblemished lamb, which was sacrificed, then eaten. Not symbolically eaten, but literally consumed. And we have the Paschal sacrifice of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ, the unblemished Lamb of God, who in John, chapter 6 tells us exactly what the Eucharist entails.

We don’t believe the bread and wine become His Body and Blood, Our Lord tells us explicitly that the Eucharist becomes His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.The Early Church used two phrases quite often:
Maranatha - “Come, Lord Jesus” and Parousia - “the 2nd Coming”, but it also means “Presence”. Paul used the term “Parousia” to describe his plain-looking presence to others, I think in Corinithians.

Could the Church have been saying, “Maranatha” and “Parousia” to describe Jesus’ Second Coming (which is our normal interpretation) or to describe Transubstantiation in the Mass, for that is exactly what happens.

 

[NoelFitz]

Jobenz

many thanks for your reply.

I still consider that the doctrine of the Eucharist is believed by Catholics. It is NOT proven.

The concept of transubstantiation is a way of understanding change within the hylomorphic theiry, just as the rearranging of atoms is a may of understanding change within the modern molecular ortbital theory. Nowhere is the Bible does the word transubstantiation occur. In fact it was only considered hundreds of years after Christ, at the first Council of Nicea (325 CE).

Vísus, táctus, gústus in te fállitur,
Sed audítu sólo túto créditur:
Crédo quídquid díxit Déi Fílius:
Nil hoc vérbo Veritátis vérius.

Sight, touch, and taste in Thee are each deceived;
The ear alone most safely is believed.
I believe all the Son of God has spoken :
Than Truth’s own word there is no trucer token.

 

[savedsinner]

I appologize for my rant last night, I was pulling your legs, I am catholic, and I actually don’t think that James White is the greatest theological mind in the world.

I think that the doctrine of transubstantiation is found in scripture at about the same level as the Trinity, or the hypostatic union. It took a council to finally define this dogma.

Each Church council was called to stop heresy on a certain teaching, and the council would more clearly define what was already held by the Church and passed down from the Apostles.

Patrick Madrid speaks of Tradition and the development of doctrine as a chair in a very dark room in the morning. As the morning light starts to lighten the room, we can see the chair a little, at first we see that it is the shape of a chair, then we can see that it has colors, then we can see that it is wood, with a cloth seat. When it is light enough, we can see all the features of the chair, but that chair was always there.

The same with transubstantiation, you will not see the full blown doctrine explained in scripture, but when you add everything up, you can recognize that it is there.

• Jesus changed water into wine.
• Jesus’ miracle of the loafs right before his bread of life discourse where he feeds a multitude.
• Jesus’ words in the bread of life discourse.
• Jesus’ words at the last supper.
• Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians concerning the Eucharist.
• The fact that to renew the covenant in the passover, a Jew needed to eat the lamb at the Passover meal.
• The fact that when Moses sprinkled the blood of the covenant, he and the 70 elders went up on the mountain and ate a meal with God.

There are more passages which allude to the idea of transubstantiation, but you will not find it spelled out like it was in the Fourth Lateran Council In 1215. (section 1 confession of faith)

 

[savedsinner]

OK, savedsinner, I’m the guy who laughed at you in the first place. Please note, it was at your post, not at your faith. Although I’m still on the limb about where you are coming from (whether you are truly sincere, or whether you are deliberately trying to bait us - and I’m leaning toward the latter…), I’ll try not to laugh at you.

Well, at least til I got to the “they ate crackers and drank the juice” line.
.

Actually the sad part is that I actually did hear Chuck Swindoll say on the radio, that Jesus said "this represents my body and my blood, and they ate and drank juice at the last supper.