HELP! When must the choir kneel?

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mfaustina

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My understanding is that the church has specifically stated that all members of the congregation are to kneel during the entire Eucharistic Prayer and from after the end of the Agnus Dei to when they get in line to receive (extraordinary circumstances excluded). And our EHMCs do not approach the altar until after the priest has consumed both Body and Blood.

It is also my understanding that choir members are no less a part of the congregation than anyone else.

I have found it frustrating for quite some time that the people in the choir loft at my parish conduct themselves quite differently than they would if they were in the main sanctuary. Many of them sit during the first part of the Eucharistic prayer, then after standing to sing the Memorial Acclaimation, remain standing for the rest of the Prayer. (I understand that some have physical issues complicated by the fact that we don’t have kneelers in the first row–I’m not criticizing them at all.) Also, after the Agnus Dei, everyone goes ahead and files down the stairs to receive Communion without participating at all in the “Lord, I am not worthy…” prayer. I understand the need to get downstairs in a timely manner so we don’t hold up the line (we’re supposed to go first), but we consistently spend at least a couple minutes waiting to approach the altar–time we should have spent praying!

I decided to start acting on my own to kneel during the Euch. Prayer, standing at the Mem. Acc., then kneeling back down until right before the Doxology at the end. Even then, I don’t feel comfortable–it’s the last “natural pause” which gives me an opportunity to stand before having to sing again, but I’d much rather be on my knees until right before the sung response. Anyway, some in the choir loft started kneeling with me, but some have not. After the Agnus Dei, I have tried to file out and kneel some place until the priest has received under both species, but have found it to be rather awkward. Oh, and at this time, it would not be feasible to have the whole choir or even just the front row kneel at the railing of the choir loft. Singing from a kneeling position would result in singing directly into the wall, and no one woud hear us.

I don’t mean to sound like some conformity freak, but to me, participating in the Mass trumps any performance-related concern. A minimal creak or clothing rustle while people kneel back down or not getting back up to the loft in time to sing at least one verse of the communion hymn in 4-part harmony is not worth missing out on the the meaningful gestures and prayers of the Holy Sacrifice. They hold great meaning, both in their inherent nature and in the unity in participation we share with the rest of the worshippers. I’m just concerned that we may be too caught up in details to see the big picture and the ultimate priority of us coming to choir–to give glory to God and enhance this greatest prayer of the Church.

Any (name removed by moderator)ut about the necessity of the choir kneeling, leaving, etc. during certain times during the Mass apart from the congregation would be helpful. Certainly, this sort of issue has arisen in other parishes. Or am I totally out on a limb here? I hope to be prepared before deciding how or even if I approach my choir director and/or pastor. Thanks!
 
My parish is quite traditional and I am in the choir loft during our 9:30 am Mass, which was a Latin Novus Ordo until Summorum Pontificum went into effect. Now, it is the Extraordinary Use.

I am in the choir, and I can say that everyone I know in the choir loft at my parish would prefer to kneel. The problem is that there is not ample room for everyone to do so. Those who are physically able on the main floor of the loft, kneel on the hardwood floor with everyone else as there is room to do so. Those of us standing on bleachers have no choice but to stand. Some manage to kneel sideways if there is no one next to them, or they use one knee if they can squeeze it in somewhere.

There is a provision in in Chapter 2, section IINovus Ordo, which is an adaptation for the US, approved by the Holy See (emphasis mine):

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

Following what I have in bold, it tells us what we should do, and when, if we are prevented by health, space, or large crowd from kneeling at the prescribed times: We make a profound bow at the same time that the priest genuflects.

This is largely a matter of catechesis and people should be treated charitably. Hence, we should not assume they are not being reverent because they do not kneel at the correct times because there may indeed be lack of space, and some of them may indeed have health problems preventing them from kneeling.

Age has nothing to do with it as I have known young people with back or knee injuries and they aren’t going to advertise this.

It is best to do what we can regarding our own posture, and leave the rest to God with regards to others. All you can do is to perhaps share with the choir GIRM 43 in a helpful way, perhaps through the choir director.

Always keep in mind that catechesis in so many areas has been lacking that we should not assume they are wanting to be irreverent in any way, lest we fall into a form of rash judgment.

I have a strong belief that this newer generation of priests will be catechizing the people quite well in the coming decade and we should be patient, pray for their success and be ready to help by our humble examples.
 
Hi,

We also need to remember the community aspect of the liturgy.

According to these instructions, it would be better to all stand rather than try to kneel when there really isn’t a place for everyone to kneel.

Also from GIRM.
Movements and Posture
  1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
    A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
Lux
 
None of the churches where I have served as a musician has had a choir area with enough room for the choristers to kneel. Besides, many of the choir members are older people and would have difficulty kneeling even in a regular pew. Others might be able to kneel, but would have difficulty getting back up without having a pew to hold onto (we have stackable office-type chairs in the choir section).

My parish church where I used to live had a choir loft in the back. Rather than having everyone in the choir go downstairs, forward for communion, and then back upstairs, we had Extraordinary Ministers bring the Eucharist up to us before they took their usual spots near the back of the church. Two people running up and down the stairs is far less disruptive than 15, especially considering that some of the old ladies in the choir moved very slowly and could barely make it up the stairs once in one day, let alone twice.
 
Yes, the least disruptive manner is the better choice between options. It is better to remain quietly and reverently standing, than to create a rukus trying to kneel & get up again, if there is no kneeling place.

Lux
 
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason
Don’t you think that singing to lead the crowd in prayer is a good reason to stand? I imagine it must be very awkward to play an organ or piano while kneeling…

The communion order is up to the priest’s preference.Most of the preists we’ve had, like yours, wanted the choir receive first, from him or an EHMC he’d send to us, then at one point we had another priest who wanted us to receive last. I remember getting really mixed up at that point (and I"m the choir leader) Consistency is better in my opinion.
 
Our pastor has been helpful in trying to make our loft a more suitable place for worship. The “formal” front row of chairs has recently been replaced with chairs that have flip-out kneelers on the back. We have a runner-style rug in front of the front row that is much easier to kneel on than a tile floor. There is a row of chairs set up in front of the “real” front row, which are helpful when getting back up from a kneeling position.

However, he has the choir come down to the main sanctuary for communion because of a rubric requiring that the Eucharist not be taken so many feet (I don’t know the number) from the altar unless it’s absolutely necessary (a large Mass, disabled communicant, etc.).

We aren’t hampered at this time by a large number of people–unfortunately. But that’s for another thread…

And, hey, no one’s judging anyone’s physical fitness, reverence, or degree of catechesis here. I don’t know all the ins and outs either, and that’s why I created this post. I am looking for, and am sincerely grateful for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. It is simply my belief that a uniformity of actions, as agreed upon by the choir in general under the leadership of the director, pastor, and Church instruction, will allow choir members to do what they need to do to worship without unnecessary/significant disruption to those in the pews below.

It’s been interesting to see all the different interpretations that experienced and well-meaning people can have of the same document.
 
As some posters have mentioned, it simply is not practical for the whole choir to kneel; however, I think many choir members don’t kneel because there is a different atmosphere in the choir gallery to that of downstairs - there is a sense of being separate from the congregation, a safe distance away from the crowd! In my cathedral parish when the organ was being rebuilt during the last 2 years, the choir sang downstairs - we turned the first 4 pews facing into the nave. The choir felt very exposed and we had to kneel and stand at the customary times - so as we’d be in keeping with the congregation. We were delighted to get back to the safety of the gallery last Christmas, even though the sound of the choir was arguably better from downstairs.

Is it possible that some choir members are not in communion with the Church? I know there are some people in our choir who are Orthodox, and some who are simply there to sing the beautiful music (we sing mostly Chant and Sacred Polyphony).

Also, while it may be customary to kneel at a particular point, not kneeling does not mean that you are not giving due reverence to what is happening at the altar. In my position in the gallery, if I am to kneel during the consecration, for example, I cannot see the host when it is elevated, whereas if I stay seated I can see it and adore. Having said that, I am all for kneeling at the specified times, but it really depends on the circumstances, which sometimes make it unfeasible. Certainly, don’t kneel while singing - this compromises the sound and quality of the choir; and while the Mass is so important, the choir members have an important ministry too in singing so they should be heard! At any rate, I don’t think you should be too concerned about others’ posture at Mass - you are already leading by example, so hopefully, in time more will follow!

Finally, I thought it was a bit strange reading about the choir leaving the gallery to receive Communion. Is this impractical at all - I don’t know how big your church is. In our cathedral the choir stay in the gallery and sing during Communion, and when Mass has finished they can go to the Blessed Sacrament Chapel where they may receive Communion and stay praying for as long as they wish. It seems to me to be a good idea and it would ensure that you get to receive the Eucharist ‘in peace’ without having to interrupt your prayer to sing…
 
We do kneel after the Sanctus in our choir, and stand for the Memorial Acclamation. However, we are in the Philippines, and we remain standing along with the rest of the congregation all the way till Communion.
 
My parish is quite traditional and I am in the choir loft during our 9:30 am Mass, which was a Latin Novus Ordo until Summorum Pontificum went into effect. Now, it is the Extraordinary Use.

I am in the choir, and I can say that everyone I know in the choir loft at my parish would prefer to kneel. The problem is that there is not ample room for everyone to do so. Those who are physically able on the main floor of the loft, kneel on the hardwood floor with everyone else as there is room to do so. <>
Sorry I am late here, I am in the chior with Diane and I am one that does not/can’t kneel, esp.on a hard wood floor.

I have a bad back and lost the use of my right hand. If I had a kneeler I could bear it to some degree.

I have a very hard time getting up once I am on the floor. I would love that we could have kneelers, but we barely have the space now as it is.

I do make a profound bow though.

I don’t feel I am being irreverent at all.
 
Our choir loft does not have room for kneelers. I would prefer to kneel, but realize that because of our space issue, it is okay not to. I sit towards the edge of the pew with my hands folded. I also bow my head when the priest kneels during the consecration, as was mentioned above.

Two of our choir members are EMHC’s, so one of them will go down to the altar to bring up Communion for us. We all stand, and remain standing after receiving - our organist plays a hymn after we have all received, while the rest of the congregation is still processing to Communion. Once we have consumed the Host, we join in the hymn.
 
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