Help - Why stay Catholic vs. moving to Eastern Orthodoxy?

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The sin of schism incurs automatic excommunication.

As for them absolving sins validly, assuming they do (which, since it requires jurisdiction, it is not a settled question that they do, as the nota praevia for Lumen Gentium notes), for a sin to be forgiven, contrition is necessary. An EO convert who remained in the EO obviously has no contrition for his objective schism, so therefore it would not be forgiven.

Furthermore, the Church teaches the following as to culpability in this regard (from Dei Filius of the First Vatican Council):
  1. To this witness is added the effective help of power from on high. For, the kind Lord stirs up those who go astray and helps them by his grace so that they may come to the knowledge of the truth [23] ; and also confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light [24], so that they may persevere in this light, not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned.
  2. Consequently, the situation of those, who by the heavenly gift of faith have embraced the Catholic truth, is by no means the same as that of those who, led by human opinions, follow a false religion; for those who have accepted the faith under the guidance of the Church can never have any just cause for changing this faith or for calling it into question.
 
I would assume not if the person truly believes the Orthodox Church is the True Church founded by Christ - or at least the fullness of the True Church as we humans can best portray it. In that case, I believe their intent and their love for the Holy Trinity is more important than which Apostolic Church they are in. If the true love of God is the driving factor and the intention was to do the best possible with the information at hand, I can’t imagine there would be many ramifications in that situation. To that end, there are canonized saints that have switched between Churches - Saint Alexis Toth is one such example. Saint Alexis, please pray unto God for all of us in this discussion!
 
Jesus said others would do miracles in his name. Anyone trying to make it seem like only those in the true Church can do miracles runs counter to Our Lord’s own words:

Mark 9:[37] John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him. [38] But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me.
 
To that end, there are canonized saints that have switched between Churches - Saint Alexis Toth is one such example. Saint Alexis, please pray unto God for all of us in this discussion!
I don’t think he is canonized by the Church he left (albeit as a result of being mistreated by John Ireland) Also, I’m not sure if OCA canonizations are recognized throughout the EO world, since OCA’s autocephaly is disputed.
 
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The sin of schism incurs automatic excommunication.
I smiled a bit at this. I mean, how do you throw someone out who has already left? 😉 But as a greater concern to your point, I recall JP2 and his “Two Lungs” theory and the oceans of dialogue between the two Churches of the last half century. As such, you can’t even conclusively argue that they’ve even left “The Church”.

And as a final bit of fairness, your equivalent hardliners in the EO make the same tired, general statement about Catholics. “Anathematized schismatics” and so on.
As for them absolving sins validly, assuming they do…
I think a Catholic could assume so, as the last umpteen popes have affirmed it and there is no trumping temporal authority for a pope within Catholicism, right?
An EO convert who remained in the EO obviously has no contrition for his objective schism, so therefore it would not be forgiven.
Again your theory is strained by the possibility/probability that they haven’t even technically left. They still receive the body and blood of Christ at their weekly liturgies.
Furthermore, the Church teaches the following as to culpability in this regard (from Dei Filius of the First Vatican Council):
Paragraph 14 is only relevant if they’ve “abandoned God”. I’m sure you’d make the argument that someone who converted from the CC to the EO has done so, but I’m fairly certain your view isn’t the consensus among Catholic theological circles.

As to paragraph 15, the EO could hardly be considered a “false religion” as the CC recognizes their sacraments, commonly refers to it as the “other lung” ect. ect.

It seems your biggest stumbling blocks here are the gracious concessions made by the Catholic Church toward recognition of the validity of Orthodoxy in a multitude of ways.

Those dang ecumenists, right? :roll_eyes:
 
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I agree that excommunication is a redundant punishment for schism (FYI it is canon 1364); I guess the point is to reiterate the grave fact of the natural consequence. Schism is defined as refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or communion with those subject to him. EOs, whether culpable or not, refuse submission to the Roman Pontiff as a matter of principle.

As for the “two lungs,” it refers to the Eastern and Western traditions within the Catholic Church. It is important for the Church to be able to do this, if she is to hope to reconcile the separated Churches. Speaking of the Eastern Catholic Churches working together with the Western where they are found together, St. John Paul II said:
The universal Church needs a synergy between the particular Churches of East and West so that she may breathe with her two lungs, in the hope of one day doing so in perfect communion between the Catholic Church and the separated Eastern Churches.
Ecclesia in America (January 22, 1999) | John Paul II
Next, there’s a difference between being born and raised in an EO Church and leaving the Catholic Church for it. As the Catechism states, quoting the Vatican II decree on ecumenism, “one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ” (CCC 818). See my citation to the First Vatican Council for the teaching on those who are charged with the sin of separation (obviously those born EO, who come to know or should know they should join the Catholic Church would of course by definition be culpable as well). As for your comment of them “abandoning God,” as the text says, the point is that He provides the grace to keep them in the Catholic faith and He does not withdraw that grace without fault on the individual’s part–it necessarily requires a decision against God’s love and grace.

As for the validity of the sacrament of penance, there is no doubt as to the validity of the other sacraments. The Council of Trent, however, defines the need for jurisdiction for the valid exercise of this sacrament by priests (Session 14, canon 7). The question is whether bishops separated from hierarchical communion can make such a grant. Again, Lumen Gentium specifically says such powers “cannot be exercised,” but as to whether this is a matter of validity or liceity, it says “[t]hese questions are left to theologians to discuss—specifically the question of the power exercised de facto among the separated Eastern Churches, about which there are various explanations.”

I am happy to be corrected if the Church has subsequently made a ruling on this question. You say many Popes have–could you point to that?

The rest of your post deals with the identity of the Church, which I will address in the next post.
 
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Understood - but IMO he’s a saint. I’ll gladly venerate his relics and celebrate his feast when in an OCA Church. There are others, though…Saint Sergius of Radonezh comes to mind.
 
The Catholic Church teaches at Vatican II in Lumen Gentium that the Church of Christ on earth is “an entity with visible delineation” and the marks that visibly delineate it are “profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion.” The decree on the Eastern Churches sums it up briefly in its opening: “The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government” (par. 2).

Valid sacraments are not enough–being jointed in hierarchical government (which includes being subject to the Roman Pontiff, according to Catholic doctrine) is also necessary–otherwise, there would be no such sin as schism.

Granted, we do acknowledge that “many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure.” In the case of the EOs we can go so far as to say they have particular Churches (ie valid bishops and the people attached to them celebrating a common Eucharist). But, they cannot be said to be the one Church of Christ as professed in the Creed–the one Church of Christ, cannot be said to subsist in them.

Unfortunately, Lumen gentium’s use of the phrase “subsistit in” was misinterpreted by some to mean the opposite of what it meant. Rather than meaning that permanent and unique identity of the Catholic Church alone as the Church of Christ, some, as you are doing now, said that it included non-Catholic Churches and communities. As a result, Rome has had to intervene a few times.

Dominus Iesus
The interpretation of those who would derive from the formula subsistit in the thesis that the one Church of Christ could subsist also in non-Catholic Churches and ecclesial communities is therefore contrary to the authentic meaning of Lumen gentium.
CDF Resp. to Certain Questions Re. Doctrine on the Church
In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium ‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.

Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the “one” Church).
CDF Comm. re same
In fact, precisely because the Church willed by Christ actually continues to exist (subsistit in) in the Catholic Church, this continuity of subsistence implies an essential identity between the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church…In choosing the word “subsistit” the Council intended to express the singularity and non “multipliability” of the Church of Christ.

Contrary to many unfounded interpretations, therefore, the change from “est” to “subsistit” does not signify that the Catholic Church has ceased to regard herself as the one true Church of Christ.
If the EOs and the Catholic Church were already the one Church of Christ, we wouldn’t need any “dang ecumenists” since the whole point of ecumenism is to work and pray to make that a reality.
 
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I was thinking more along the lines to miracles like Fatima, Lourdes etc. I would ask myself why the Catholic Church? Mary always came to a Catholic recipient and sent them to a catholic priest. Forgive me but, I don’t believe she’s ever come and said go to your Baptist minister, or to anyone of any Protestant denomination. This is what I meant not that only some people can perform miracles in the name of Jesus but rather that these favors of miracles aren’t with all churches.
 
Oh, I agree with you when it comes to the content of particular messages. I was just reiterating your other point that Catholics believing miracles can happen elsewhere is good.
 
As the Catechism states, quoting the Vatican II decree on ecumenism…
See my citation to the First Vatican Council…
The Council of Trent, however, defines…
Again, Lumen Gentium specifically…
All of which is less than authoritative for someone who has converted to Orthodoxy, I hope you realize? Which is kinda what we’re talking about?

Of course Catholicism prefers its members stay Catholic. But Catholicism still has this (imo “good”) problem where the sacraments exist outside its confines by its own admission.

If I’m worshiping in a place that is one, holy, catholic and apostolic and validly affects the sacraments, then for all intents and purposes, I’m worshiping in the Church.

“But it’s not licit according to me and my hard-line coreligionists!!!”

In one fine tradition of the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Constantinople - “Go kick rocks”.
But, they cannot be said to be the one Church of Christ as professed in the Creed–the one Church of Christ, cannot be said to subsist in them.
Of course they can. They just don’t exercise oneness in the same way as the monarchial and monolithic western Church. What you call division is simply their way of exercising Church discipline outside of their sees and you consistently refuse to recognize that.

If you’d like a list of Churches that are part of the communion, I’m happy to provide.
If the EOs and the Catholic Church were already the one Church of Christ, we wouldn’t need any “dang ecumenists” since the whole point of ecumenism is to work and pray to make that a reality.
Sure, a visible reality. And on terms both can accept.
 
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aturally, it also assumes that ancient references to “Rome” are synonymous with “the pope” which is highly debatable for the first few centuries after Christ because much of the influence of the Roman seat also arose from Paul being co-founder and being it being the imperial capital.
I wouldn’t call Paul a cofounder; Paul was a “Johnny-come-lately.” Remember he had to go to Peter and James, (and he mentions this begrudgingly.)
 
Irenaeus refers to it as the “universally known church founded and organized in Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul.”

He is not unique in his assessment.
 
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Vonsalza:
Irenaeus refers to it as the “universally known church founded and organized in Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul.”
A lot of emphasis on Peter.
For a Catholic, sure.

But in reality, Christianity probably came to Rome before either one of them did.
The religion kicked-off as an off-shoot of Judaism and Rome had a substantial Jewish community in which to foster the coming religion well before Christ even lived.

The two apostles just organized it.
 
It made it’s way to Rome, sure. But I don’t think the text specifies travelers from anywhere.

I think the first Romans from the city itself were Aqilla and Pricilla, if I got the names right. That was from Paul’s later letter to the church in Rome. Not Acts.
 
But I don’t think the text specifies travelers from anywhere.
It does.
Acts 2:9-11
“We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, both Jews and converts to Judaism.
 
Ah. Mea culpa.

Thought there were just 120 ppl there. Wonder where I read that…🤔
 
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You should ask the Holy Spirit where you belong. Ask the Holy Spirit where your faith will truly grow. Where will you learn about Jesus Christ as God, Lord, and Savior. It’s about having a relationship. All of the rules and regulations mean nothing if Jesus Christ is not first in your heart, mind, soul, and strength. God bless!
 
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