Help with a debate

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Jonni_Jeja

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Hi, I wanted to know if some of you guys can help me. I have got myself into a debate on women Priests. (which I am not for by the way). It’s turned in to assorts of attacks against the Catholic faith. I know I should not of got myself into the debate but felt I had to defend my faith and did well but have now had a couple of things put to me which I don’t no how to answer for the best. Is there any verse in the Bible or CCC to help me answer?

These are the 2 things that were put to me.
  1. @Jonni incorrect. god did not speak directly to the authors. for instance letters attributed to paul but not written by him were decided by the church to be the word of god. and in adding what their personality was thereby opened the door for error.
you confusion as to being inspired to write about god as opposed to god speaking directly to the authors is the problem. look into discussions as to whether or not moses “borrowed” from hammurabi.
  1. @Jonni look into the gnostics, christians declared heretics by the orthodox church. why would god be a jealous god? if he is god then there is no other god so he should be jealous of who? the gnostics cosmology described “the creator” as not being god. that didn’t sit well with the orthodox church.
you also forgot about loving and serving your neighbor as the second commandment is like unto the first.

“like unto”…interesting turn of phrase that.

Thanks in advance for any help. Oh and here is the link to the debate if your interested.
cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/05/catholic_women_priests_ordain.html
 
Jonni_Jeja said:
  1. @Jonni incorrect. god did not speak directly to the authors. for instance letters attributed to paul but not written by him were decided by the church to be the word of god.
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Huh? This makes no sense. In this case, the author was the person who wrote the epistle; and he was the one who was inspired by God! The fact that they are pseudepigraphic writings doesn’t mean that God didn’t inspire them, but rather, only that they are inaccurately attributed to Paul!
and in adding what their personality was thereby opened the door for error.
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And this differs from any other writing found in the Bible… how, again? 😉 See the paper The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, authored by the Pontifical Biblical Commission. In particular, speaking of the errors of fundamentalism, it states:
It refuses to admit that the inspired word of God has been expressed in human language and that this word has been expressed, under divine inspiration, by human authors possessed of limited capacities and resources. For this reason, it tends to treat the biblical text as if it had been dictated word for word by the Spirit. It fails to recognize that the word of God has been formulated in language and expression conditioned by various periods. It pays no attention to the literary forms and to the human ways of thinking to be found in the biblical texts, many of which are the result of a process extending over long periods of time and bearing the mark of very diverse historical situations.
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you confusion as to being inspired to write about god as opposed to god speaking directly to the authors is the problem. look into discussions as to whether or not moses “borrowed” from hammurabi.
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Is this your response, or still what others are saying to you??? :confused:
  1. @Jonni look into the gnostics, christians declared heretics by the orthodox church. why would god be a jealous god? if he is god then there is no other god so he should be jealous of who?
Click to expand...
This is a simple error in understanding the definition of a word. In contemporary English usage, people confuse jealousy with envy; the former means “intolerance of unfaithfulness” or “vigilance in guarding [a possession]”, while the latter means “wanting a thing that another has”. God is jealous, not envious. He desires us to be faithful, but He doesn’t fear that something or someone has something that He wants. 😉
the gnostics cosmology described “the creator” as not being god. that didn’t sit well with the orthodox church.
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Not exactly a thorough description of gnostic belief, but nevertheless… what does this have to do with anything? Yes, some who claimed to be Christian espoused beliefs that ran counter to what Christ taught. Therefore, the Church opposed those erroneous beliefs. The problem here, again, is… what? 😉
 
*Thanks Gorgias, your help is very much appreciated.
The two questions that were put to me (and many more) are from someone else and not my questions. They are just firing all kinds of false facts into the debate. I just got stuck with an answer to the tow questions.
Would you mind if I used your replies? *
 
Oh and I will certainly let them know I sneaked help in the answer rather than make things up.
Thanks again.
 
What is the point of the debate anyway? That scriptures are invalid? That they are not inspired?
 
Jonni_Jeja said:
Hi, I wanted to know if some of you guys can help me. I have got myself into a debate on women Priests. (which I am not for by the way).
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FYI, JPII addressed the issue of “women priests” with an infallible ruling.

"4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
Wherefore,* in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful. "*

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo…otalis_en.html

Ergo, the case is closed. There is no more discussion.
J:
It’s turned in to assorts of attacks against the Catholic faith. I know I should not of got myself into the debate but felt I had to defend my faith and did well but have now had a couple of things put to me which I don’t no how to answer for the best. Is there any verse in the Bible or CCC to help me answer?

These are the 2 things that were put to me.
  1. @Jonni incorrect. god did not speak directly to the authors. for instance letters attributed to paul but not written by him were decided by the church to be the word of god. and in adding what their personality was thereby opened the door for error.
you confusion as to being inspired to write about god as opposed to god speaking directly to the authors is the problem. look into discussions as to whether or not moses “borrowed” from hammurabi.
Click to expand...

  1. *]All scripture is inspired by God. [2 Timothy 3:16](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Timothy+3:16&version=RSVCE) That’s true for the OT as well as the NT.
    *]What that person DID get right is, the Catholic Church DID decide what books would be scripture. That’s because the NT was written in, by, for, and canonized by the Catholic Church. That’s right 🙂 Peter, Paul, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke were all in the Church they wrote to and for. The Catholic Church came before the NT scriptures were written **#34 **Where he is wrong is that the CC opened the door for error. [2 Peter 1:20](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Peter+1:20&version=RSVCE) If he opens that door as his belief, then imv, he disqualifies himself from being taken seriously.
    J:
    1. @Jonni look into the gnostics, christians declared heretics by the orthodox church. why would god be a jealous god? if he is god then there is no other god so he should be jealous of who? the gnostics cosmology described “the creator” as not being god. that didn’t sit well with the orthodox church .
    Click to expand...
    I would ask your protagonist friend to quote for you with references, properly documented, the first time in writing we see “orthodox church”. For my own references, I would like to see that answer myself. When he mentions “gnostics”, I’m thinking of the works “Against Heresies” by Irenaeus. He wrote against gnostics. And he wrote for the Catholic Church. (Bk 1 Chapter 10 ). Before being made bishop of Lyon (today France) Irenaeus was originally from Smyrna ( today Turkey) where he knew Bp Polycarp. Polycarp was a disciple of St John. Polycarp also called the Church the Catholic Church The Martyrdom of Polycarp And Ignatius of Antioch who was also a disciple of St John called the Church the Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæans of which those who leave it won’t inherit heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians

    BTW, the links I provided to the original documents to support the claims being made, is the kind of evidence I’m saying you should require of the one you’re debating with. iow, Don’t take his word for what he says. Get evidence properly referenced.

    I hope this helps you
 
santiagoamr said:
What is the point of the debate anyway? That scriptures are invalid? That they are not inspired?
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Thats basically what they are saying and other things.
steve_b said:
FYI, JPII addressed the issue of “women priests” with an infallible ruling.

"4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
Wherefore,* in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare* that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful. "

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo…otalis_en.html

Ergo, the case is closed. There is no more discussion.


  1. *]All scripture is inspired by God. [2 Timothy 3:16](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Timothy+3:16&version=RSVCE) That’s true for the OT as well as the NT.
    *]What that person DID get right is, the Catholic Church DID decide what books would be scripture. That’s because the NT was written in, by, for, and canonized by the Catholic Church. That’s right 🙂 Peter, Paul, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke were all in the Church they wrote to and for. The Catholic Church came before the NT scriptures were written #34 Where he is wrong is that the CC opened the door for error. [2 Peter 1:20](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Peter+1:20&version=RSVCE) If he opens that door as his belief, then imv, he disqualifies himself from being taken seriously.

    I would ask your protagonist friend to quote for you with references, properly documented, the first time in writing we see “orthodox church”. For my own references, I would like to see that answer myself. When he mentions “gnostics”, I’m thinking of the works “Against Heresies” by Irenaeus. He wrote against gnostics. And he wrote for the Catholic Church. (Bk 1 Chapter 10 ). Before being made bishop of Lyon (today France) Irenaeus was originally from Smyrna ( today Turkey) where he knew Bp Polycarp. Polycarp was a disciple of St John. Polycarp also called the Church the Catholic Church The Martyrdom of Polycarp And Ignatius of Antioch who was also a disciple of St John called the Church the Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæans of which those who leave it won’t inherit heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians

    BTW, the links I provided to the original documents to support the claims being made, is the kind of evidence I’m saying you should require of the one you’re debating with. iow, Don’t take his word for what he says. Get evidence properly referenced.

    I hope this helps you
Click to expand...

  1. WOW, this is great, much appreciated. Can i use some of your words too?
 
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