Help with a Dogma and a Pgraph from CCC

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I am strugling with how these two things could be compatible with one another.

The Dogma: Outside the Catholic Church there is no Salvation.

How does this reconsile with paragraph 841 of the CCC?

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Now if there is No Salvation Out Side the Catholic Church. How can we also state that Muslims can be saved due to the fact they worship the same God? Also how can it be the same God when they disenvow the Trinity and or the Davinity of Jesus?

To me these two can not go together at all.

Help!?:confused:
 
If you find yourself in heaven it will have been through the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ for that very reason.
 
:hmmm::banghead::hmmm:That didn’t help me. To me these two statments above seem to contradict each other.
 
workingman said:
I am strugling with how these two things could be compatible with one another.

The Dogma: Outside the Catholic Church there is no Salvation.

How does this reconsile with paragraph 841 of the CCC?

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Now if there is No Salvation Out Side the Catholic Church. How can we also state that Muslims can be saved due to the fact they worship the same God? Also how can it be the same God when they disenvow the Trinity and or the Davinity of Jesus?

To me these two can not go together at all.

Help!?:confused:
Click to expand...
I would interpret this as meaning that they believe in God but not the Triune God. This in no way means that they are saved by being Muslim. By acting on the graces the true God gives them they can be saved but this salvation, whether they know it or not, comes through the Catholic Church.
 
Context Context Context…

If you look a couple of paragraphs down you will get your answer…
From the Catechism…
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Muslims, while rejection of Christ is part of their faith, may yet reject Him in ignorance if, as often happens, they are raised without exposure to the Gospel but only the Muslim view…Thus it can be said that they were “ignorant” of the Gospel even if they know the name of Jesus.
They can - none the less - achieve salvation under the provisions ourlined in 847 above.

Peace
James
 
Ok so if they are ignorant of the gospel message they could through God’s graces get “a free pass” (lack of a better term). I question their ignorance I guess though. Most Muslims consider the Gospels and Torah to be useful though corrupted. So if it has been read can one be ignorant?

What about thoughs who have converted one way or the other. Bolth Catholics and Muslims teach that to leave their religion is condemning ones self to Hell.
 
To be absolutely accurate the text is:

There is no salvation outside the Church.

The word “Catholic” is not part of the statement (though it can be implied from the context).

There is an article at:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html

That addresses this issue in depth. Perhaps it will be helpful to you.
 
workingman said:
Ok so if they are ignorant of the gospel message they could through God’s graces get “a free pass” (lack of a better term). I question their ignorance I guess though. Most Muslims consider the Gospels and Torah to be useful though corrupted. So if it has been read can one be ignorant?
Click to expand...
There are all levels of Catholics, from those who have studied thoroughly to those who have only a rudmentary knowledge. Those who have read many of the encyclicals and various other church documents and those who rely almost excusively on their pastor or DRE for their information.
Which group do you think is larger, those who have studied deeply or those who have not? I’m sure you will agree that far more people are “less informed” than “more informed” about their faith
And I do not as a bash against Catholics or catechesis. There is also issues relating to time and “smarts” etc… But the bottom line is that many Catholics do not know why we believe what we believe…Most have some idea, but not the in depth understanding…

Now - I bet we can say the same thing fro the average muslim. They believe the Gospels and Torah are corrupted because their teachers have told them so and not because they have personally looked into the matter.

Yet each “uninformed” or “misinformed” person can by Gods grace follow a path of Love (which is the root of all the Law ans Prophets) and thereby achieve salvation…It’s more difficult but the Church recognizes that it can be done…
What about thoughs who have converted one way or the other. Bolth Catholics and Muslims teach that to leave their religion is condemning ones self to Hell.
Click to expand...
There again culpability will depend a certain amount on how well informed one is about the faith they are leaving…Best to leave this to God.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
There are all levels of Catholics, from those who have studied thoroughly to those who have only a rudmentary knowledge. Those who have read many of the encyclicals and various other church documents and those who rely almost excusively on their pastor or DRE for their information.
Which group do you think is larger, those who have studied deeply or those who have not? I’m sure you will agree that far more people are “less informed” than “more informed” about their faith
And I do not as a bash against Catholics or catechesis. There is also issues relating to time and “smarts” etc… But the bottom line is that many Catholics do not know why we believe what we believe…Most have some idea, but not the in depth understanding…

Now - I bet we can say the same thing fro the average muslim. They believe the Gospels and Torah are corrupted because their teachers have told them so and not because they have personally looked into the matter.

Yet each “uninformed” or “misinformed” person can by Gods grace follow a path of Love (which is the root of all the Law ans Prophets) and thereby achieve salvation…It’s more difficult but the Church recognizes that it can be done…

There again culpability will depend a certain amount on how well informed one is about the faith they are leaving…Best to leave this to God.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
I agree best to leave it to God.
 
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