Help with a fallen away catholic

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PETER AS VICAR OF CHRIST PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE

Non-Catholics respond to the claim that the pope is the Vicar of Christ by stating, “There is no vicar of Christ on earth except the Holy Spirit!” It is true that the Holy Spirit is a vicar of Christ (John 15:26, 16:12-15), but there may be others also. The term “vicar” means “a substitute; esp. an under-servant [who substitutes].” The scriptures clearly show that Simon Peter was appointed by Jesus to such a position in His kingdom.

Matthew 16:13-19
"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus gives to Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. This alludes to the prophecy of Isaiah that reads,

"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Isaiah 22:22)

In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command or prime minister who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. Jesus gives Peter the authority to speak in His name and extends his authority beyond the earthly realm when he gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 17:24-27
24After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?” 25"Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?” 26"From others," Peter answered. “Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him. 27"But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

Jesus specifically commands Peter to pay the tax that He Himself owed. Peter acted on Jesus’ behalf in fulfilling the requirement to pay the tax.

John 21:15-17
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” 16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

In this passage, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Who feeds, tends and cares for sheep? A shepherd!

We know that Jesus is the Good Shepherd (Jn 10:11) and that there is one Shepherd and one flock (Jn 16). Yet, in the passage above, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Peter becomes the shepherd who will lead the flock after Jesus’ ascension. Therefore, while Jesus is forever our Good Shepherd reigning from heaven, He has made provision for us by naming someone else to stand in His place, to be His vicar, here on earth. The Vicar of Christ established by Jesus is the Pope of the Catholic Church.
 
Peter – The Rock and the Keeper of the Keys

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:13-19)
  1. Code: 
      Peter's understanding that Jesus was the Son of God did not come from working it out on his own. Instead, God the Father infused this revelation into Peter’s mind thus imprinting His seal of approval upon this humble fisherman. Jesus recognized that Simon had already been anointed by His Father in this way and declared, “***Blessed*** are you.” The Father had blessed Simon with knowledge of the Son.
  2. Code: 
      Jesus gave him the name, "Kepha", an Aramaic word that means "rock". In the original, the passage would read, "You are *kepha*, and on this *kepha* I will build my church." Jesus also announces the establishment of His Church, and clearly delineates Kepha as its leader. Although Jesus spoke Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Greek, and “*Kepha*” would have been translated into the Greek words for “rock” which are “*petra*” or “*petros*”. “*Petra*” is the feminine form of the masculine word, “*petros*”. *Petros* is more suitable for a man. Therefore, from “*petros*” we derive the English name, “Peter”. For us modern readers then, Jesus’ pronouncement reads, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” What is it about Peter’s character that caused Jesus to compare him to something as solid as rock? Isn’t this the same Peter who Jesus called “Satan” just a few verses later? (cf. Mt 16:23) Isn’t this the same Peter who would deny the Lord three times after his arrest? (cf. Lk 22:34) Surely this unstable character is anything but solid rock upon which a Church could be built; yet, Jesus sees something deeper in Peter’s character, and His choice would be vindicated when Peter ultimately received a martyr’s crown via crucifixion.
  3. Code: 
      The Church to be built was not of human origin. Jesus did not say, “You are Peter, and upon this rock ***you*** must build ***a*** church.” He said, “***I*** will build ***my*** church.” Inaugurated by the Father, built by the Son and led by the Holy Spirit, the Church is a human institution of divine origin.
  4. Code: 
      For this reason, “the gates of Hell will not overcome” the Church, and for over 2,000 years the Church, lead by the Apostolic Successors of Peter, has faithfully borne witness to the gospel.
  5. Code: 
      Jesus gives to Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. This alludes to the prophecy of Isaiah that reads, "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. **I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”** (Isaiah 22:22) In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command or prime minister who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. Jesus gives Peter the authority to speak in His name and extends his authority beyond the earthly realm when he gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.”
  6. Finally, Jesus reveals the infallible nature of the Church when he declares, “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." What does this passage mean? There are two possible interpretations. First, if God reciprocates the binding and loosing of Church on earth with an identical binding or loosing in heaven, then the binding and loosing done on earth **must of necessity** be free from all error. If this were not so, God would have put himself in the impossible situation of affirming that which is not true. A second interpretation would be that the authority of the church is to carry out the will and decisions of God upon earth as they have been established in heaven. This is in perfect accord with the way Jesus instructed us to pray: "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10). Thus, the Church must either be prevented from teaching error in order that God may ratify its decisions in heaven or the Church must be proclaiming here below those things that are already true in heaven. Either way, the decisions and actions of the Church can be seen to be infallible with regard to matters of faith and morals. Anything less would make Jesus a liar for He also declared, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13) and “I am with you always till the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)
 
=danandirma-need a really good come back. here is his e-mail.
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What was the Christian church like in the first century? It was scattered throughout the world, sometimes visible through house churches.
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Friend I respectfully disagree with you. Eph. 4:4-8. These components of One Church [body] one faith [one set of beliefs] one Baptism [still practiced today] and One God [Triune in Nature] are from the time of Peter and continue today. The term “Christians” was applied early in the Second Century.

Consider these words of Paul written in the FIRST CENTURY!

**1 Cor.11:23 **"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself " One could not profane by simply eating bread and drinking wine now could they? 🤷
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When I look at church history, I don’t see the Christian church in one denomination led by a Pope. I don’t see cardinals, clerical robes/vestments, relics, baptism by sprinkling, etc.

Friend it would help if you actually opened your eyes. The evidence is staring you smack straight in the face.2 Cor.4: 2 “We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.

***Here is a list of names and dates for the first 10 Popes

St. Peter, d. 64? or 67? ,St. Linus, 67?–76? ,St. Cletus, or Anacletus, 76?–88? ,St. Clement I, 88?–97?,St. Evaristus, 97?–105? ,St. Alexander I, 105?–115? ;St. Sixtus I, 115?–125? ,St. Telesphorus, 125?–136? St. Hyginus, 136?–140? ‘St. Pius I, 140?–155? Guess why so many in 155 years? They died as martyrs for THE FAITH!*
I can’t find any evidence via the Holy Bible that Peter was ever pope. In fact the papacy was unknown in the 1st century. Peter did not even think of himself as the “Vicar of Christ”. (Acts 10:25,26.) [He was saying that he was not God!] Matt 18:18, John 20:23 tells us that the binding and loosing applied to all of the apostles.
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[Cute: but untrue. These verses refer to Confession of sin; binding and loosing refer to Governance]

Please see the next post fro furter evidence!
Regarding Matt. 16:16-19,
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we need to understand what “kingdom of heaven” means. Some people have suggested that it refers to heaven itself, and thus, they have represented Peter as the one who allows or prevents access into the eternal reward.

your kidding right:blush:. “THE KEYS TO THE GATES of heaven”, don’t mean access to heaven:shrug:

***Isa. 22: Re: PETER ***“22 And I[Jesus] will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons

***This is part of the discourse in which Christ makes clear in unambiguous language that He intends to: 1. Form His Church (singular use of “I” “you” “rock” and “church.” 2. That it is to be only ONE church. 3. That Peter is given the access (gate keys) to heaven. 4. Peter (and Peter alone) is given all of the power and authority to govern with COMPLETE autonomous authority, answering ONLY to God [the King] Himself!

To “bind” and to “loose” were common, Rabbinical, legally binding at Law terms for exactly that! Complete, and free governance. Jesus, Peter and all that heard knew exactly what Jesus meant! Exactly what Jesus meant!

The location Jesus chooses is a clear indication of the Mission of His Church. Peter and the Apostles are to “Overcome, do away with pagan worship.” Jesus gives His Church this Mission, and all of the tools and authority needed to accomplish it!

The “Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven” is a literal statement of FACT!

Back in the time if Jesus all major cites were walled in for protection from attack. These cities actually had two real GATES, with REAL KEYS. A minor gate and the Main gate.

Each major city had there own king, and thus a “kingdom.” So there were many Kings and many kingdoms. The Apostles and the Jewish people of that time period would have been firmilar and comfortable with the idea of a King and his PM.

All day to day governance was given to a person that they selected as “Prime Minister.” An example of this is Genesis 42 and Joseph, the brother sold into slavery, who is made Prime Minister of all of Egypt.

This is the common understanding and the very reason for the specific reference to “Keys” and the “Kingdom.” There would have been absolutely zero doubts about what Christ was saying, doing and mandating for Peter, now the “Prime Minister” for Christ!

This account is historically provable. Indeed Christ intended to start His (ONE) Church, and to give Peter and those “prime-ministers” (POPES) complete and autonomous control and governance of His Church. ***

Pat**
 
I suspect that this verse is included in the Bible to sacre fallen away catholics back into His Church! Written by by a Catholic for Catholics!

**Heb. 6: 4 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift [Euchrist], and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God [thee truth] and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. **

***1. Additional biblical support for “One Church” and Primacy of Peter

Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .”
The “power of the keys” has to do with ecclesiastical discipline and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution, baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative powers. In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a man who is “over a house”
  1. Mt: 16:19 " whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
“Binding” and “loosing” were technical rabbinical terms, which meant to “forbid” and “permit” with reference to the interpretation of the law, and secondarily to “condemn” or “place under the ban” or “acquit.” Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation and the Spirit’s leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from the Church. “Binding and loosing” represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.
  1. Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the “first” (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.
  2. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, “Rock,” solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42: Mt 16:18).
  3. Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after Himself (Jn 21:15-17), singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet 5:2).
  4. Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” (Lk 22:32).
  5. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren” (Lk 22:32).
  6. Peter first confesses Christ’s divinity (Mt 16:16).
  7. Peter is regarded by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13) as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.
  8. Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mk 16:7).
  9. Peter leads the apostles in fishing (Jn 21:2-3,11). The “bark” (boat) of Peter has been regarded by Catholics as a figure of the Church, with Peter at the helm.
  10. Peter’s words are the first recorded and most important in the upper room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22).
  11. Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22).
  12. Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to “preach the gospel” in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).
  13. Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
  14. Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) emphatically affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)!
  15. Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
  16. Cornelius is told by an angel to seek Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
  17. Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God (Acts 10:9-48).
  18. Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity (universality) of the Church (Acts 11:5-17).
  19. Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Church Age (an angel delivers him from prison - Acts 12:1-17).
  20. Peter presides over and opens the first Council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterwards accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11).
  21. Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon Magus (Acts 8:14-24).
  22. Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50% of the time we find John in the Bible! Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60% of the time any disciple is referred to!
  23. Peter’s proclamation at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) contains a fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the “House of Israel” (2:36) - an example of “binding and loosing.”
  24. Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).
  25. Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to see Peter for fifteen days in the beginning of his ministry (Gal 1:18), and was commissioned by Peter, James and John (Gal 2:9) to preach to the Gentiles.
29: 1 Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. (Mt. Chapter 23)

Note: While the bible does not speak specifically of the “ Chair of Peter,” this term gets it’s origin from “the Chair of Moses,” which EVERYONE KNEW WAS THE “SEAT OF RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY.”
  1. Peter corrects those who misuse Paul’s writings (2 Pet 3:15-16). ‘In conclusion, it strains credulity to think that God would present St. Peter with such prominence in the Bible, without some meaning and import for later Christian history; in particular, Church government.
The papacy is the most plausible (we believe actual) fulfillment of this directive to ‘Feed my sheep.‘ ”***

Love and prayers,
 
here is his next e-mail…
The biggest thing that changed my mind about the RCC is that it never not once taught me about John 3:3, 7, Eph. 2:8
It led me to believe that salvation could not be found anywhere else except in the RCC. I grew up without the Bible. (Luther said he never saw the complete Bible until he was 20) When I started reading the Scriptures I fell in love with it. With the words of Jesus and Paul. I discovered church doesn’t save anyone. The sacraments don’t save. All my good works and church attendance can’t save me. The Bible says our most righteous acts are filthy rags. Faith in Christ alone saves. Repentance, admitting I’m a sinner who cannot save myself and surrendering my life to Christ is what its all about. Being born-again spiritually and getting baptized as a public statement that I am a follower of Jesus Christ, being totally immersed as the Savior was. Christianity isn’t about religion but about a relationship with Jesus Christ. This is what Paul taught and this was the epiphany that Luther had. One can never know Jesus if he’s chanting, saying the rosary, praying to dead saints and being sprinkled as a baby.

You asked me what catholic doctrines/teachings are not in the Bible.There are more than a few. The catholic beliefs are in parenthesis below with the verses that contradict.
  1. Exodus 20:4-5 (Images).
  2. Ezekiel 18:20 (Original sin).
  3. Matthew 20:20-28 (Hierarchy).
  4. Matthew 23:5-6 (Clerical dress).
  5. Matthew 23:9 (“Father”).
  6. Matthew 28:19 (Infant baptism).
  7. Mark 7:8,13 (Tradition).
  8. Luke 11:27-28 (Adoration of Mary).
  9. Luke 16:26 (Purgatory)
  10. Luke 22:24-27 (Primacy of Peter)
  11. Romans 6:4 (Pouring).
  12. 1 Corinthians 1:2 (“Saints”)…
  13. Galatians 4:9-11 (Special days).
  14. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (Pope has place of God).
  15. 1 Timothy 2:5 (Many Mediators).
  16. 1 Timothy 3:2 (Unmarried bishops).
  17. 1 Timothy 4:3 (Forbid marriage).
  18. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (Many authorities).
  19. Hebrews 8:12 (Indulgences).
  20. James 5:16 (Confess to priest).
  21. 1 Pet. 2:5,9 (“Priesthood”).
The RCC has made unauthorized additions such as: holy water; penance; Latin mass; extreme unction and purgatory. These practices came too late to be apostolic or “original.” Catholics pray to Mary and a myriad of saints long since dead. What does Ps. 106:28 and Col. 2:8 say about this? The bible teaches that the dead know not anything and Necromancy, the talking or praying to the dead, is an abomination. The Bible nowhere teaches prayers to Mary but to God alone.

The RCC teaches that salvation is dispensed by the church, especially through the sacramental system. The church has the authority to grant partial or plenary (full) remission of the temporal punishment of sin by selling memorial masses and indulgences. These can alleviate, shorten, and even eliminate the time spent in the purging fires of purgatory.
By contrast, the biblical teaching is that salvation is a divine gift of grace, not a human achievement. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Rom 5:8). “He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed” (Is 53:5)

Mark 2:1-12 explains that only God alone has the power to forgive sins. We need no human mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
 
danandirma said:
here is his next e-mail…
The biggest thing that changed my mind about the RCC is that it never not once taught me about John 3:3, 7, Eph. 2:8
It led me to believe that salvation could not be found anywhere else except in the RCC. I grew up without the Bible. (Luther said he never saw the complete Bible until he was 20) When I started reading the Scriptures I fell in love with it. With the words of Jesus and Paul. I discovered church doesn’t save anyone. The sacraments don’t save. All my good works and church attendance can’t save me. The Bible says our most righteous acts are filthy rags. Faith in Christ alone saves. Repentance, admitting I’m a sinner who cannot save myself and surrendering my life to Christ is what its all about. Being born-again spiritually and getting baptized as a public statement that I am a follower of Jesus Christ, being totally immersed as the Savior was. Christianity isn’t about religion but about a relationship with Jesus Christ. This is what Paul taught and this was the epiphany that Luther had. One can never know Jesus if he’s chanting, saying the rosary, praying to dead saints and being sprinkled as a baby.

You asked me what catholic doctrines/teachings are not in the Bible.There are more than a few. The catholic beliefs are in parenthesis below with the verses that contradict.
  1. Exodus 20:4-5 (Images).
  2. Ezekiel 18:20 (Original sin).
  3. Matthew 20:20-28 (Hierarchy).
  4. Matthew 23:5-6 (Clerical dress).
  5. Matthew 23:9 (“Father”).
  6. Matthew 28:19 (Infant baptism).
  7. Mark 7:8,13 (Tradition).
  8. Luke 11:27-28 (Adoration of Mary).
  9. Luke 16:26 (Purgatory)
  10. Luke 22:24-27 (Primacy of Peter)
  11. Romans 6:4 (Pouring).
  12. 1 Corinthians 1:2 (“Saints”)…
  13. Galatians 4:9-11 (Special days).
  14. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (Pope has place of God).
  15. 1 Timothy 2:5 (Many Mediators).
  16. 1 Timothy 3:2 (Unmarried bishops).
  17. 1 Timothy 4:3 (Forbid marriage).
  18. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (Many authorities).
  19. Hebrews 8:12 (Indulgences).
  20. James 5:16 (Confess to priest).
  21. 1 Pet. 2:5,9 (“Priesthood”).
The RCC has made unauthorized additions such as: holy water; penance; Latin mass; extreme unction and purgatory. These practices came too late to be apostolic or “original.” Catholics pray to Mary and a myriad of saints long since dead. What does Ps. 106:28 and Col. 2:8 say about this? The bible teaches that the dead know not anything and Necromancy, the talking or praying to the dead, is an abomination. The Bible nowhere teaches prayers to Mary but to God alone.

The RCC teaches that salvation is dispensed by the church, especially through the sacramental system. The church has the authority to grant partial or plenary (full) remission of the temporal punishment of sin by selling memorial masses and indulgences. These can alleviate, shorten, and even eliminate the time spent in the purging fires of purgatory.
By contrast, the biblical teaching is that salvation is a divine gift of grace, not a human achievement. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Rom 5:8). “He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed” (Is 53:5)

Mark 2:1-12 explains that only God alone has the power to forgive sins. We need no human mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
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You’re being shot-gunned.

Ask him to pick one issue…the thing that he objects to the most…and focus on that for awhile.

When he tells you what his REAL beef is, then we can assist further.
 
here’s my reply. my words are underlined.
Erik,
I have answered all your issues in this e-mail. I pray that you will take the time and read it all. I have given you answers from the bible it self. I agreed to have this open conversation with you about the early church writings. After going through this e-mail and answering, it is clear to me why you are not seeing the Catholic church in the early writers texts. You have no understanding of what the Catholic church teaches. Your issues are proof of this. You are a intelligent man, with a lot of scriptural knowledge. I am not condemning you, only your Catholic teachers. They failed you in the wirst way. For that I am truly sorry. We need to have more people like you who have a real desire for learning Gods word. I am sorry this message is soo long, but in hopes that you will see the fullness of truth that IS in the Catholic faith.
The biggest thing that changed my mind about the RCC is that it never not once taught me about John 3:3, 7, Eph. 2:8

I am glad you are showing me your thoughts. After reading your issues, I can tell your catechists failed you miserably. This is a huge problem with my generation of Catholics. The scriptural training was awful. I came into a fervent church within the RCIA program. I was taught the church’s teachings with the bible, because most of the candidates were coming from protestant backgrounds. Then we were shown where the were held within the catechism.
  1. Exodus 20:4-5 (Images). notice when you read these verses, they are speaking about them being worshiped as gods. I don’t think the image of Mary is God. Do you actually think we are praying just to Mary? You are greatly mistaken. Never has the Catholic church taught us to pray only to Mary. It is through her and with her, our prayers are only to God. As you read these verses you will see God Himself uses images to help his people. Is He wrong?
    Ex 25:18-19 - make two cherubim of beaten gold
    Num 21:8-9 - Moses made bronze serpent & put on pole
    1Kgs 6:23-29 - temple had engraved cherubim, trees, flowers
    1Kgs 7:25-45 - temple had bronze oxen, lions, pomegranates
  2. Ezekiel 18:20 (Original sin). These verses are not talking about original sin. They are speaking about the sins of our fathers that will not be held against us, his children. Original sin comes from Adam. Not our paternal father.
    Gn 2:16-17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die
    Gn 3:11-19 - God’s punishment for eating of the tree
    Rom 5:12-19 - many became sinners through one man’s sin
    1Cor 15:21-23 - by a man came death; in Adam all die
    Eph 2:1-3 - we all once lived in the passions of our flesh
  3. Matthew 20:20-28 (Hierarchy). I have explained this one already. If you look at the Greek, you will see Jesus singles Peter out here. This verses makes no sense if you try to minimize Peter’s position.
    Luke 22:31* "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, * that he might sift you like wheat, 32* but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.
  4. Matthew 23:5-6 (Clerical dress). ?? You lost me on this one. Says nothing about the vestments of priests.
  5. Matthew 23:9 (“Father”). Matthew 23:9, “And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in Heaven.” Notice, however, that this makes no distinction between spiritual fathers, which is what our priests are to us, and biological fathers. In other words, if you interpret this passage to say, absolutely, that no man is to be called father, you cannot distinguish between calling a priest, father, and calling the man who is married to your mother, father.
    But, is that actually what this passage is saying? Or is Jesus warning us against trying to usurp the fatherhood of God? Which, in many ways, is what the Pharisees and Scribes were doing. They wanted all attention focused on them…they were leaving God, the Father, out of the equation. Which is why Jesus goes on to call them hypocrites, liars, and whitewashed tombs. If you interpret this passage from Matthew 23 as an absolute ban against calling anyone your spiritual father, then there are some problems for you in the rest of Scripture. For example, Jesus, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, has the rich man referring to Abraham as “father” several times. Paul, in Romans chapter 4, refers to Abraham as the “father” of the uncircumcised, the Gentiles. That’s referring to spiritual fatherhood, not biological fatherhood.
    In Acts 7:1-2, the first Christian martyr, Stephen, referred to the Jewish authorities and elders who were about to stone him as brothers and “fathers,” as does Paul in Acts, chapter 22. This is referring to spiritual fatherhood. So, if you interpret Matthew 23 as saying we cannot call anyone our spiritual father, then you have a problem with Jesus, Paul, Stephen, and the Holy Spirit…they must have all gotten it wrong. It is okay to call priests “father”, just as it was okay for Jesus and Paul to call Abraham “father” and for Stephen and Paul to call the Jewish elders “father.” As long as we remember that our true Father is God the Father and that all aspects of fatherhood, biological and spiritual, are derived from Him. And as long as we do not allow anyone else to usurp that role in any way, shape, or form, as the Pharisees and Scribes were prone to do.
The New Testament is filled with examples of and references to spiritual father-son and father-child relationships. Many people are not aware just how common these are, so it is worth quoting some of them here. Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: “Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ” (1 Cor. 4:17); “To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (1 Tim. 1:2); “To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (2 Tim. 1:2). He also referred to Timothy as his son: “This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare” (1 Tim 1:18); “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 2:1); “But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel” (Phil. 2:22).
Paul also referred to other of his converts in this way: “To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior” (Titus 1:4); “I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment” (Philem.
 
pt.2.
6. Matthew 28:19 (Infant baptism). Fundamentalists often criticize the Catholic Church’s practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children, because it is to be administered only after one has undergone a “born again” experience—that is, after one has “accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.” At the instant of acceptance, when he is “born again,” the adult becomes a Christian, and his salvation is assured forever. Baptism follows, though it has no actual salvific value. In fact, one who dies before being baptized, but after “being saved,” goes to heaven anyway.

As Fundamentalists see it, baptism is not a sacrament (in the true sense of the word), but an ordinance. It does not in any way convey the grace it symbolizes; rather, it is merely a public manifestation of the person’s conversion. Since only an adult or older child can be converted, baptism is inappropriate for infants or for children who have not yet reached the age of reason (generally considered to be age seven). Most Fundamentalists say that during the years before they reach the age of reason infants and young children are automatically saved. Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to “accept Jesus” in order to reach heaven.

Since the New Testament era, the Catholic Church has always understood baptism differently, teaching that it is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons.

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, “For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him” (2:39). We also read: “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16 - baptism required for entering heaven
1Cor 15:21-22 - in Adam all die, in Christ all made alive
Mk 10:14 - let children come; to such belongs the kingdom
Lk 18:15 - people were bringing even infants to him…
Col 2:11-12 - baptism has replaced circumcision
Jos 24:15 - as for me and my house, we will serve Lord
Mt 8:5ff. - daughter healed because of centurion’s faith
Mt 15:21ff. - daughter healed because of Canaanite woman’s faith
Lk 7:1ff. - just say the word, and let my servant be healed
Acts 16:31 - believe in Lord Jesus you & house will be saved
Acts 16:15 - she was baptized, with all her household
Acts 16:33 - he and all his family were baptized at once
1Cor 1:16 - I baptized the household of Stephanas
  1. Mark 7:8,13 (Tradition). You say you love the writings of Paul. Maybe you missed these?
    1Cor 11:2 - commends them for following Apostolic tradition
    2Thess 2:15 - commands them to keep traditions
    2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
  2. Luke 11:27-28 (Adoration of Mary). In Jeremiah 7:18, God is indeed upset with the Israelites for worshiping a false goddess called the “queen of heaven”. However, just because God rebuked them for worshiping the false queen of heaven, doesn’t mean that we cannot pay honor to the true Queen of Heaven…the Blessed Mother.
    That type of thinking would lead you to believe that just because people worship a false god that they call “god,” we, therefore, should not call the true God, by that same name…God…because that’s the same title the idolaters use for their god! That is faulty logic and it makes no sense whatsoever.
    Again, the fact that there is a false “queen of heaven”, does not lead to the conclusion that we worship a false goddess when we call Mary the “Queen of Heaven.” Just as the fact that there is a false “god”, does not lead to the conclusion that we worship a false god when we call our Father in Heaven, God.
    And there is a true Queen of Heaven, we see this quite clearly in Revelation 12:1, “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars…” Let’s see. There’s a woman…she’s in Heaven…and she has a crown on her head. I could be wrong, but I don’t think it’s the maid! No! It is the true Queen of Heaven, Mary, the mother of the male child who is to rule the nations.
    We do not worship Mary, we honor her, just as Jesus honors her. So, there is absolutely nothing wrong, from a scriptural point of view, in calling Mary the Queen of Heaven, and in honoring her just as Jesus honors her.
    Lk 1:28, 30 - angel: "full of grace, found favor with God
    Lk 1:42 - Elizabeth: “most blessed among women”
    Lk 1:48 - Mary: “all generations will call me blessed”
    Lk 1:43 - Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God
    Mt 1:23 - virgin bear a son, Emmanuel = “God is with us”
    Lk 1:35 - child born will be called holy, the Son of God
    Gal 4:4 - God sent his Son, born of a woman
 
pt.3
9. Luke 16:26 (Purgatory) Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, “The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture.” This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory. Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage. Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine. Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.
Mt 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God
Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
Rev 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven
Jam 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead
10. Luke 22:24-27 (Primacy of Peter) I have gone over this enough
11. Romans 6:4 (Pouring). ???
12. 1 Corinthians 1:2 (“Saints”)… see mediators…
13. Galatians 4:9-11 (Special days).
14. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (Pope has place of God). This is nonsense.
15. 1 Timothy 2:5 (Many Mediators). 1 Tim 2:5 reads as follows: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…” “You see,” we Catholics are told, “there is only one mediator between God and men, Jesus Christ. Therefore, praying to the saints goes against the Bible because you are making them mediators between God and man, you are diminishing Jesus’ role as the sole mediator!”
Is that an appropriate interpretation of that passage? No, it’s not and let’s see why not.
In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others… that’s mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us… that’s mediating between God and man. So, I think, once again, we have a situation where a passage of the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood.
There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation.
Also, Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11); but, Scripture tells us that there is more than one foundation (Eph 2:19-20). Scripture tells us that we have only Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4-5); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord (Rev 19:16). Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ (James 4:12); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge (1 Cor 6:2).
Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus’ Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus’ role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well. Another example, as a father I share in God’s role as Father, by His grace. And, so also, we, and the saints in Heaven, and the angels in Heaven, can share in Christ’s role as Mediator.
16. 1 Timothy 3:2 (Unmarried bishops). This is not doctrine. It is discipline. Again this shows you lack of knowledge of the Catholic faith.
17. 1 Timothy 4:3 (Forbid marriage). Same as the above.
18. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (Many authorities). Without the authority of the church, the non-Catholic christian denominations have grown to over 40,000 different churches. All claiming to go by the bible alone. This is in it self against the bible. Romans 16: 17
Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles
Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin
1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)
Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice
Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
Mt 18:17 - power to discipline
Jn 10:16 - there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
1Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
 
pt.4
16. 1 Timothy 3:2 (Unmarried bishops). This is not doctrine. It is discipline. Again this shows you lack of knowledge of the Catholic faith.
17. 1 Timothy 4:3 (Forbid marriage). Same as the above.
18. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (Many authorities). Without the authority of the church, the non-Catholic christian denominations have grown to over 40,000 different churches. All claiming to go by the bible alone. This is in it self against the bible. Romans 16: 17
Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles
Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin
1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)
Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice
Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
Mt 18:17 - power to discipline
Jn 10:16 - there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
1Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
1Cor 12:13 - in one spirit we are baptized into one body
Rom 12:5 - we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to be one hope
Col 3:15 - the peace into which you were called in one body
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church (singular)
Mt 18:17 - tell it to THE Church; if he refuses to listen even to THE Church… (must be visible)
 
pt.5
19. Hebrews 8:12 (Indulgences). Principle 1: Sin Results in Guilt and Punishment
When a person sins, he acquires certain liabilities: the liability of guilt and the liability of punishment. Scripture speaks of the former when it pictures guilt as clinging to our souls, making them discolored and unclean before God: “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool” (Is. 1:18). This idea of guilt clinging to our souls appears in texts that picture forgiveness as a cleansing or washing and the state of our forgiven souls as clean and white (cf. Ps. 51:4, 9).
We incur not just guilt, but liability for punishment when we sin: “I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless” (Is. 13:11). Judgment pertains even to the smallest sins: “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil” (Eccl. 12:14).
Principle 2: Punishments are Both Temporal and Eternal
The Bible indicates some punishments are eternal, lasting forever, but others are temporal. Eternal punishment is mentioned in Daniel 12:2: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
We normally focus on the eternal penalties of sin, because they are the most important, but Scripture indicates temporal penalties are real and go back to the first sin humans committed: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16).
Principle 3: Temporal Penalties May Remain When a Sin is Forgiven
When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:
“Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’” (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)
Protestants realize that, while Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They fully acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent. God’s forgiveness (and man’s!) does not include letting you keep the stolen car.
Protestants also admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin, in practice, when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2).
Principle 4: God Blesses Some People As a Reward to Others
In Matthew 9:1-8, Jesus heals a paralytic and forgives his sins after seeing the faith of his friends. Paul also tells us that “as regards election [the Jews] are beloved for the sake of their forefathers” (Rom. 11:28).
When God blesses one person as a reward to someone else, sometimes the specific blessing he gives is a reduction of the temporal penalties to which the first person is subject. For example, God promised Abraham that, if he could find a certain number of righteous men in Sodom, he was willing to defer the city’s temporal destruction for the sake of the righteous (Gen. 18:16-33; cf. 1 Kgs. 11:11-13; Rom. 11:28-29).
Principle 5: God Remits Temporal Punishments through the Church
God uses the Church when he removes temporal penalties. This is the essence of the doctrine of indulgences. Earlier we defined indulgences as “what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven.” The members of the Church became aware of this principle through the sacrament of penance. From the beginning, acts of penance were assigned as part of the sacrament because the Church recognized that Christians must deal with temporal penalties, such as God’s discipline and the need to compensate those our sins have injured.
In the early Church, penances were sometimes severe. For serious sins, such as apostasy, murder, and abortion, the penances could stretch over years, but the Church recognized that repentant sinners could shorten their penances by pleasing God through pious or charitable acts that expressed sorrow and a desire to make up for one’s sin.
The Church also recognized the duration of temporal punishments could be lessened through the involvement of other persons who had pleased God. Scripture tells us God gave the authority to forgive sins “to men” (Matt. 9:8) and to Christ’s ministers in particular. Jesus told them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21-23).
If Christ gave his ministers the ability to forgive the eternal penalty of sin, how much more would they be able to remit the temporal penalties of sin! Christ also promised his Church the power to bind and loose on earth, saying, “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). As the context makes clear, binding and loosing cover Church discipline, and Church discipline involves administering and removing temporal penalties (such as barring from and readmitting to the sacraments). Therefore, the power of binding and loosing includes the administration of temporal penalties.
Principle 6: God Blesses Dead Christians As a Reward to Living Christians
From the beginning the Church recognized the validity of praying for the dead so that their transition into heaven (via purgatory) might be swift and smooth. This meant praying for the lessening or removal of temporal penalties holding them back from the full glory of heaven. For this reason the Church teaches that “indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of prayer” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 3). The custom of praying for the dead is not restricted to the Catholic faith. When a Jewish person’s loved one dies, he prays a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death for the loved one’s purification.
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danandirma said:
here is his next e-mail…
The biggest thing that changed my mind about the RCC is that it never not once taught me about John 3:3, 7, Eph. 2:8
It led me to believe that salvation could not be found anywhere else except in the RCC. I grew up without the Bible. (Luther said he never saw the complete Bible until he was 20)
When I started reading the Scriptures I fell in love with it. With the words of Jesus and Paul. I discovered church doesn’t save anyone. The sacraments don’t save. All my good works and church attendance can’t save me. The Bible says our most righteous acts are filthy rags. Faith in Christ alone saves. Repentance, admitting I’m a sinner who cannot save myself and surrendering my life to Christ is what its all about. Being born-again spiritually and getting baptized as a public statement that I am a follower of Jesus Christ, being totally immersed as the Savior was. Christianity isn’t about religion but about a relationship with Jesus Christ. This is what Paul taught and this was the epiphany that Luther had. One can never know Jesus if he’s chanting, saying the rosary, praying to dead saints and being sprinkled as a baby.
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I bolded the above simply to say that, in these simple statements your friend has defined what it means to be a follower of Christ. A stance that the catholic Church wholeheartedly embraces.
You asked me what catholic doctrines/teachings are not in the Bible.There are more than a few. The catholic beliefs are in parenthesis below with the verses that contradict.
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  1. Exodus 20:4-5 (Images).
  2. Ezekiel 18:20 (Original sin).
  3. Matthew 20:20-28 (Hierarchy).
  4. Matthew 23:5-6 (Clerical dress).
  5. Matthew 23:9 (“Father”).
  6. Matthew 28:19 (Infant baptism).
  7. Mark 7:8,13 (Tradition).
  8. Luke 11:27-28 (Adoration of Mary).
  9. Luke 16:26 (Purgatory)
  10. Luke 22:24-27 (Primacy of Peter)
  11. Romans 6:4 (Pouring).
  12. 1 Corinthians 1:2 (“Saints”)…
  13. Galatians 4:9-11 (Special days).
  14. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (Pope has place of God).
  15. 1 Timothy 2:5 (Many Mediators).
  16. 1 Timothy 3:2 (Unmarried bishops).
  17. 1 Timothy 4:3 (Forbid marriage).
  18. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (Many authorities).
  19. Hebrews 8:12 (Indulgences).
  20. James 5:16 (Confess to priest).
  21. 1 Pet. 2:5,9 (“Priesthood”).
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Obviously you are thoroughly dealing with each of these. I read through your responses and can only say BRAVO!!!
The RCC has made **unauthorized additions **such as: holy water; penance; Latin mass; extreme unction and purgatory. These practices came too late to be apostolic or “original.”
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Here one is back to “Authority”. I might add that the accepted canon of the Holy Bible alsoe came to late to be “Apostolic or Original”.
Catholics pray to Mary and a myriad of saints long since dead. What does Ps. 106:28 and Col. 2:8 say about this? The bible teaches that the dead know not anything and Necromancy, the talking or praying to the dead, is an abomination. The Bible nowhere teaches prayers to Mary but to God alone.
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The Bible also doesn’t say to Pray to Jesus, although it does say we should ask “In His Name”. Jesus Himself teaches us to Pray only to “The Father”. Therefore, following the logic here, we should never pray to Jesus.
But I think you already thoroughly addressed the praying to saints and other “Dead” people. ONe other point I’d make - maybe you arleady did - but Jesus says somewhere that God is the God of the Living not of the Dead. Also, in the Transfiguration, Was Jesus standing with the corpse of Moses and Elijah?
The RCC teaches that salvation is dispensed by the church, especially through the sacramental system. The church has the authority to grant partial or plenary (full) remission of the temporal punishment of sin by selling memorial masses and indulgences. These can alleviate, shorten, and even eliminate the time spent in the purging fires of purgatory.
By contrast, the biblical teaching is that salvation is a divine gift of grace, not a human achievement. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Rom 5:8). “He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed” (Is 53:5)
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Your friend says “The Church does this or that”, we say, “Christ, acting through His Church,…”
Mark 2:1-12 explains that only God alone has the power to forgive sins. We need no human mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
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Of course only God forgives sin. The Priest only acts as the conduit, acting - “In persona Christi”, just as he does in the Mass.

I’m afriad I can offer little to this discussion, But I wish to say that I am enjoying reading it. You are certainly giving your friend much to consider and are approaching him in a most intelligent and Christian manner. I Also enjoy seeing all of Randy’s responses.

It seems that, as with all of these discussions the only real issue is one of authority.
Authority of the Church,
Authority of the Bible,
Authority of the individual.
All of the eother issues contained in your friend’s e-mails are connected to this one issue and no matter how many answers you give him he will only see them as “Your”, or “The Church’s” erroneous interpretations.
Of couse the “800 pound Gorrilla” in Protestantism IS the plethora of different “Gospels” (Doctrines and beliefs) ALL based on the Bible. While I shy away from the 30,000 or 40,000 number for the “Different beliefs”, the fact remains that even if there two or three different “Bible Churches” teaching conflicting doctrines it is sufficient to shoot down the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura for the Holy Ghost cannot teach opposing Truths.

The other thing about this whole “Authority” thing is this.
Regardless of how one sees the development of the Canon in the first centuries, it cannot be denied that it was the Bishops of the Catholic Church, in communion with The Bishop of Rome, who established, translated, copied, taught, diseminated, and protected the Holy Bible. Does it make sense that this Church would put anything in the Holy Bible that contradicted what the Church taught???

I applaud your patience and knowledge. I hope the seeds you are planting will bear fruit.

Peace
James
 
here is his reply to my e-mail…

Let me ask you something. Where is Jesus in all your catholic teachings? With all the traditions, customs and rituals, where’s the simplicity of His Gospel?

Where is His command that “Ye must be born again?”

Nicodemus was a well educated man but he didn’t understand these truths. He asked how can a man enter his mother’s womb a 2nd time? Jesus was speaking of a spiritual rebirth when he said :"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Nicodemus said: “How can this be?” Jesus answered: “You are a teacher in Israel and do you not understand these things?” The Jews, God’s chosen people, whom much of Christianity derives from, still didn’t get it. When one believes he has the truth, he ceases to be teachable.

This is also true of the RCC and other churches that believe they alone are the One True Church. They reject all evidence presented to them that show the fallacy of some of their teachings. I showed you the scripture verses that contradict some of the RCC’s teachings. Those were not my words but God’s. I tried to be fair and only quote catholic sources. I used the catholic encyclopedia. One of the problems is using the teachings of your church to prove Roman Catholicism. Its like using the bible to try and prove the bible. It doesn’t work. What does the NT say about the word ‘church’? Its not a building or organization. Its a body of believers.

This is the one of the biggest, (perhaps the biggest) errors of the RCC. That is how that church failed me. Throughout its history it has failed to teach this vitally important command of Christ; "Unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. For this reason (as well as others) I had to leave the catholic church. Jesus also commanded his followers to carry out the Great Commission. He said I must be about my Father’s business. So too must all Christians. The Gospel of Jesus Christ must be preached to all corners of the globe. Every born again Christian has been endowed with spiritual gifts and those gifts must be used in order to glorify God. Those gifts must also be used in the church for as Paul said we are all members of one body (Christ’s church) and every member needs all the others. The RCC does not allow for the parishioners to express these myriad of spiritual gifts because of the separation of clergy and laity. Its structure is hierarchical and patriarchal. The spiritual gifts of Christian women are snuffed out.Yet this was not the case in the NT church. Often Christians met in homes and many times women led these home churches. The Bible mentions female prophetesses and disciples.

Do you really believe God cares about all the stained glass, statues, gold chalices, relics, chantings, counting rosary beads and priests donned in purple robes and other vestments? Where does the Bible say we can pray to anyone other than God? Where are the personal heartfelt prayers if we are chanting and saying prayers that were written by others long ago?

I would like to recommend a book to you. Its called “The Catholic Church: A short history.” Its written by Hans Kung, a catholic priest in good standing, raised in a catholic family and will most likely die a catholic. His book is one of the most honest portrayal of the catholic church. He writes a very accurate history and with a completely objective stance. He dares to confront the errors and the need for reforms. He painfully admits the Matt 16 text shows no evidence for a papal system. He gives a complete history from the 1st century church to the roman catholic church as we know it today. He urges all catholics to open their eyes to the truth. Here are a few excerpts from his book:

“Through his words and actions Jesus became involved in a dangerous conflict with the ruling forces of his time. Not with the people, but with the official religious authorities, with the hierarchy. Jesus was anything but the representative of a patriarchal hierarchy. He was one who relativized the fathers and even called women to his circle of disciples. This cannot be claimed in support of a patriarchalism which is hostile to women.”

"Jesus praised marriage and nowhere made celibacy a condition of discipleship, whose first disciples were married. He cannot be claimed to serve as the authority for a rule that clergy shall be celibate. He was one who served his disciples and required that the highest shall be the servant. Jesus radiated a democratic spirit, not a church characterized by class, caste, race or office, of brothers and sisters, not a regiment of men. This was the original Christian liberty, equality and fraternity. The original community did not have a hierarchical structure.There were no offices in the original church as it indicates a relationship of domination. Even today Catholic exegetes accept that the famous saying about Peter as the rock on which Christ will build His church is not a saying of the earthly Jesus but was composed after Easter by the Palestinian community.
"Nowhere is the NT church called catholic, but Christians. From Antioch, not Rome. Bishops of the catholic church are fond of calling themselves “successors of the apostles”, but a careful investigation of the NT sources in the last hundred years has shown that this church constitution which centers on the bishop, is by no means directly willed by God or given by Christ, but is the result of a long and problematical historical development. It is human work… Jesus Himself was not catholic.

"There is not one word in the letters of Paul about a papal institution of the church. Paul was convinced that his gentile Christian churches were complete and well equipped, lacking nothing essential. Paul thinks it quite normal that the Eucharist is celebrated there without him and without anyone who has been appointed to an “office”.

Although Peter had special authority, he never possessed it alone, but always collegiality with the others. He was first among equals. He was far removed from being a spiritual monarch, even a sole ruler. There was no trace of any exclusive quasi monarchical authority as leader… We do not read anywhere in the NT that Peter was in Rome. Far less evidence of a successor of Peter (also in Rome) in the NT. Catholic theologians concede that there is no reliable evidence that Peter was ever in charge of the church in Rome as supreme head or bishop. The monarchical episcopate was introduced in Rome relatively late. And we must not forget the matter of qualifications; unlike Paul, Peter was not an educated roman citizen with a perfect command of the Greek language, he was an uneducated Galilean Jew. It was not Rome but Jerusalem that was the head and mother community of the first Christianity. The central RCC institution of the papacy are man made. Its foundation was simply the confession in faith of this Jesus as the Messiah.
 
help with a fallen away catholic Op #17” by danandirma
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This third e-mail… I will talk about Peter in this email roman catholic church justifies their papacy by claiming Peter was pope. That he had special privileges that none of the other Apostles had. That Christ had elevated him above the others. For me to believe this, I need to go to the Scriptures.
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Actually it is Christ and the Bible simply stating historically proveable facts. [PLEASE read the follow up post that gives additional details of The Primacy of Peter.] He was the “First amongst equals” as the term “Pope had yet to be introduced.
Did Peter ever claim to be pope or “vicar” of Christ? No. Did he ever say to the other apostles that they must take orders from him?
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There is zero evidence that Peter sought the position as the Leader of Christ New Church. On the other hand there exist an abundance of data that shows that Christ Choose him!. Some seek leadership while others have its weight thus upon them. It was Christ not Peter who decided whom would run and govern the infant church.

**Jn.15:16 ]“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide;”
**
Lk.22: 31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

Jn.21: 15 “When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” [Govern in my name!] He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.]
In fact, the apostles had sent Peter on an assignment. In the Book of Acts we read about Philip who went to Samaria and preached Christ. Then follows an account of God’s blessing upon His word and we read: “Now the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John.” Think of it: The apostles in Jerusalem sent Peter. Peter was not sitting in Jerusalem upon some “throne” reigning a church. No, he was commissioned by the church! If Peter was pope, for the other disciples to send him on an assignment would be like your parish priest sending pope Benedict somewhere on assignment. It isn’t done.
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**Acts 8: 14 **]“Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon [not Peter] saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.”
  1. In earlier verses in the same book and chapter we find Stephan [the first Christian martyr] being stoned to death. Acts 8:1 “And on that day a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles and this was in a time of great persecution.”
  2. At the same time Peter and John in **Acts ch. 4 & 5 speak specifically about the hatred building up by the High Priest, who demanded that Peter and John shut up and stop preaching, and how they threatened them. ** Acts 4:1-22.
It was concern for their safety that was the motive to get them out of Jerusalem for a while. It was not a leadership issue. There was also some obvious influence of the HS, who knew about Simon the magician, and wanted an authoritative rebuke. Also Philip was not a Bishop and could not do “laying on of the hands” and make the Holy Spirit visible.
  1. In a separate post I will prove the primacy of Peter.
Love and prayers.
 
“help with a fallen away catholic “ Post 17 by danandirma
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Jesus never said: Peter YOU are the rock. What did Jesus promise Peter? That he would be the blessed person to open the doors of Christianity (the church), but Peter (petros) would not be the rock (Petra) of the church. The church is Christ’s church. Christ built His church, using the first 12 apostles as the first stones in this one time mission (Matt 16:16-18)
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KJV Bible: Mt.16:17 “And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18: And I say also ***unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock ***[singular] I will build my church [also singular]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it 19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou [singular] shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou [singular] shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. “

***“Peter” in Greek means “rock” (and thus, “you Peter” [Greek: Petra!] Alone.) NOTE: “Petra is male gender”

“Greek translates so…” Peter “petr (os)” means, “pebble.” While “Pet (ra) ” means “rock.” NOTE: petros is female gender.

Young’s [non-Catholic] Literal Translation Greek to English***

“18`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.’ “
What was Peter’s confession? That Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. In Acts 2:36, Peter not only opened the doors of Christianity, but he also confessed once more that Jesus was the Lord and the Christ (the rock on which the church would be built).Therefore, it was on this exact day that the words of Jesus were fulfilled.
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**A 2: 36 **]“Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Of course He is! That is the base theme of Catholism!
Is it just Peter who has the keys and the privilege of binding and loosing? Look again. Matthew 18:18 tells us that ALL of the disciples had the privilege to bind and loose, the implication is that all of them have the keys
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Haydocks Commentary v.18:* “Whatsoever you shall bind, &c. The power of binding and loosing, which in a more eminent manner was promised to St. Peter, is here promised to the other apostles and their successors, bishops and priests. The power of binding and loosing, conferred on St. Peter, excelled that granted to the other apostles, inasmuch as to St. Peter, who was head and pastor of the whole Church, was granted jurisdiction over the other apostles, while these received no power over each other, much less over St. Peter.”*
Origen said that all Christians possess the keys (Commentary on Matthew, 10-14). John Chrysostom said that the apostle John possessed the keys (Homilies on the Gospel of John, 1:2). Other church fathers also denied the papal interpretation (Matt 16) in various ways.
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Of course they did and do! What are some of the keys?

JN.3:5 Baptism

MT. 19:16 The Commandments

JN. 20:21-23 Confession of sins for forgiveness
**
MT. Chps. 5 & 6 The Beatitudes.**

The Seven sacraments all created and instituted by Christ
Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders [priesthood] and Last Rites.

Lk.9: 23 ”And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself?”

1 Peter 4: 16 yet if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, [keep in mind when this was written in the First Century the ONLY Christians were Catholics!] but under that name let him glorify God. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? {Now it applies to all that know Jesus as the Christ!]

Please see the next post for Biblical proof of the Primacy of Peter
 
Reply to Post 17
  1. Additional biblical support for “One Church” and Primacy of Peter
Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .”

The “power of the keys” has to do with ecclesiastical discipline and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution, baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative powers. In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a man who is “over a house”
  1. Mt: 16:19 " whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
“Binding” and “loosing” were technical rabbinical terms, which meant to “forbid” and “permit” with reference to the interpretation of the law, and secondarily to “condemn” or “place under the ban” or “acquit.” Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation and the Spirit’s leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from the Church. “Binding and loosing” represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.
  1. Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the “first” (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.***
  2. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, “Rock,” solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42: Mt 16:18).
  3. Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after Himself (Jn 21:15-17), singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet 5:2).
  4. Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” (Lk 22:32).
  5. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren” (Lk 22:32).
  6. Peter first confesses Christ’s divinity (Mt 16:16).
  7. Peter is regarded by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13) as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.
  8. Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mk 16:7).
  9. Peter leads the apostles in fishing (Jn 21:2-3,11). The “bark” (boat) of Peter has been regarded by Catholics as a figure of the Church, with Peter at the helm.
  10. Peter’s words are the first recorded and most important in the upper room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22).
  11. Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22).
  12. Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to “preach the gospel” in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).
  13. Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
  14. Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) emphatically affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)!
  15. Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
  16. Cornelius is told by an angel to seek Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
  17. Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God (Acts 10:9-48).
  18. Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity (universality) of the Church (Acts 11:5-17)
    .
  19. Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Church Age (an angel delivers him from prison - Acts 12:1-17).
  20. Peter presides over and opens the first Council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterwards accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11).
  21. Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon Magus (Acts 8:14-24).
  22. Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50% of the time we find John in the Bible! Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60% of the time any disciple is referred to!
  23. Peter’s proclamation at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) contains a fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the “House of Israel” (2:36) - an example of “binding and loosing.”
  24. Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).
  25. Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to see Peter for fifteen days in the beginning of his ministry (Gal 1:18), and was commissioned by Peter, James and John (Gal 2:9) to preach to the Gentiles.
29: 1 Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the
Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. (Mt. Chapter 23)
Note: While the bible does not speak specifically of the “ Chair of Peter,” this term gets it’s origin from “the Chair of Moses,” which EVERYONE KNEW WAS THE “SEAT OF RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY.”
  1. Peter corrects those who misuse Paul’s writings (2 Pet 3:15-16). ‘In conclusion, it strains credulity to think that God would present St. Peter with such prominence in the Bible, without some meaning and import for later Christian history; in particular, Church government.
The papacy is the most plausible (we believe actual) fulfillment of this directive to ‘Feed my sheep.‘ ”
 
Well I note that he has not responded with any “counter-quotes” to the answers you gave him point by point. Instead he is moving on to another issue - Now he wants to know where is simplicity.
danandirma said:
here is his reply to my e-mail…

Let me ask you something. Where is Jesus in all your catholic teachings? With all the traditions, customs and rituals, where’s the simplicity of His Gospel?
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Jesus Christ is central to ALL Catholic Teaching just as Christ is central to ALL Biblical writing. You ask for the simplicity of His Gospel - OK - What is the simplicity of that Gospel. It is one word - “Love”. Look at the “Greatest commandment” passage; look at, “What greater Love have a man than to lay down his life for his friend”; look at His last command, to “Love one another as I have Loved you”, Look at St Paul telling us that of the three, Faith Hope and Love, the Greatest of these is Love. The True simplicity of Jesus Gospel is indeed Love. So then here is a question back to you. Knowing this, why do you need any of the rest of the Bible books. Why do you need the Bible at all? Why do you need a preacher?
Here is the answer to that.
Jesus spent much of His time teaching the applications of His Law of Love. The Disciples were always asking the famous “What if…” questions such as “Who then is my neighbor”, or “How many times should I forgive my brother…”, or What else must I do…". Humans are great at “Yea but what if…” type questions. After spending nearly 2000 years trying to answer these questions any church is bound to become complicated. It does not change the basic simplicity of the Gospel.
The Rituals and customs that you speak of as somehow being seperate from Christ are nothing of the sort. Look and listen. You will see Christ elevated in every way with Love and affection and reverence.
Where is His command that “Ye must be born again?”
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Nicodemus was a well educated man but he didn’t understand these truths. He asked how can a man enter his mother’s womb a 2nd time? Jesus was speaking of a spiritual rebirth when he said :"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Nicodemus said: “How can this be?” Jesus answered: “You are a teacher in Israel and do you not understand these things?” The Jews, God’s chosen people, whom much of Christianity derives from, still didn’t get it. **When one believes he has the truth, he ceases to be teachable.
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This is also true of the RCC and other churches that believe they alone are the One True Church. They reject all evidence presented to them that show the fallacy of some of their teachings. **
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Am I correct in assuming that you believe that you “alone” (along with others in your faith commnity) have found this truth? If so then it appears that you too have become unteachable and thus fall into the same trap you accuse others of. Or do you allow that you may be wrong in your understandings of the Scriptures just as the learned men of Isreal were?
I showed you the scripture verses that contradict some of the RCC’s teachings.
Those were not my words but God’s.
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What you have shown is scripture verses that you interpret as being contradictory to RCC teachings. However it has been shown that other verses support such teaching. Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, and the Holy Spirit cannot teach contradictory Truths then there must be some other explanation than simply, “you’re right and we’re wrong”.
I tried to be fair and only quote catholic sources. I used the catholic encyclopedia. One of the problems is using the teachings of your church to prove Roman Catholicism. Its like using the bible to try and prove the bible. It doesn’t work.
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Bravo - An admission that one cannot prove the Bible from the Bible. If that is so then the Bible’s authority, must come from somewhere else. So - By what Authority do you accept the Bible as The Word of God and By what Authority do you Teach the Word of God? If you say your authority comes from the Bible, then you are using the bible to prove the Bible which wyou say cannot be done.🤷
What does the NT say about the word ‘church’? Its not a building or organization. Its a body of believers.
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Why does "Church have to mean one OR the other? If I belong to some group such as the Rotary Club, I belong to both a “Group of believers” but also a group that is organized, with bylaws, mission statements and so forth that I must abide by in order to be a member of the group in good standing. So why is there this need among the non-catholics to deny any organization within The Church founded by Christ?
Actually the word Church is used only 2 times in the Gospels, both times by Jesus and both times in the context of granting authority to “Bind and Loose”.
I would like to ask you - As a believer and folower of the Gospel of jesus Christ, How do you fulfill the command contained in Matthew 18:15-18. In particular, How do you "Tell it to the Church.

(To DanandIrma)
We have a perfect example right here on this thread.
He says that the Church is sinning (by teaching false doctrine - a different Gospel). You have discussed it and neither has convinced the other. You (and maybe he) have even brought in “Others” so that “Every fact may be confirmed”. Still no resolution. So now, in order to fulfill Christ’s command we must - Tell it To The Church and then listen to the Church or be treated as a “Tax collector” - in other words shunned and removed from the Church.
If we substiute "Body of Believers for “Church” then what differentiates step two from step three, especially in light of verse 19 which is so fond among the Protestant community? If Christ is there among the 2 or 3, then surely this consitutes “Church (Body of Believers)” and step three, embodied in verse 18 is superfluous.
If, however, "Church DOES mean a unified, organization teaching a unified doctrine across ALL locations of the Church then the caommand in Matthew can be carried out.
I have yet to recieve a satisfactory answer from Protestants on this point. In fact we had quite a discussion about it On This Thread. that you might find interesting.

(Cont)
 
(From Above)
This is the one of the biggest, (perhaps the biggest) errors of the RCC. That is how that church failed me. Throughout its history it has failed to teach this vitally important command of Christ; "Unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. For this reason (as well as others) I had to leave the catholic church.
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The sad and simple fact here is not that the Church has not taught it but that you never learned it, or understood it within The Teachings fo The Church.
Jesus also commanded his followers to carry out the Great Commission. He said I must be about my Father’s business. So too must all Christians. The Gospel of Jesus Christ must be preached to all corners of the globe. Every born again Christian has been endowed with spiritual gifts and those gifts must be used in order to glorify God. Those gifts must also be used in the church for as Paul said we are all members of one body (Christ’s church) and every member needs all the others.
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A mission that the Catholic Church carried out rather successfully for 1500 years before the “Reformation” occured
The RCC does not allow for the parishioners to express these myriad of spiritual gifts because of the separation of clergy and laity. Its structure is hierarchical and patriarchal. The spiritual gifts of Christian women are snuffed out.Yet this was not the case in the NT church. Often Christians met in homes and many times women led these home churches. The Bible mentions female prophetesses and disciples.
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Indeed the Bible does mention spiritual gifts and women prominantly and if you would take the time to study the REAL CATHOLIC CHURCH you would find these things manifested within the Church throughout her long history. The Dialogues of St Catherine, the writings of St Teresa of Avila, St Therese’s “Little Way of Love” are all classics of catholic liturature. All of these are written by women who have been given the title “Doctor of The Church” because of the importance of their writings.
As to the laity expressing the myriad spiritual gifts, I have never been at a parish yet that wasn’t greateful for people helping in a hundred different ways. In addition to individuals there are many lay organizations dedicated to various ministries. If you look around you will even find parishes that embrace the “Charismatic” movement.
Do you really believe God cares about all the stained glass, statues, gold chalices, relics, chantings, counting rosary beads and priests donned in purple robes and other vestments? Where does the Bible say we can pray to anyone other than God? Where are the personal heartfelt prayers if we are chanting and saying prayers that were written by others long ago?
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I understand your concern here and in some cases it is a valid one. Loving and honoring and worshiping God must come from the heart. Love of God must be the principle affectation from which all our worship, prayer, sacrifice and works of charity must come. If Love is not the principle affectation, then all else is simply “windo dressing”.
IF, however, Love IS the Principle affectation of ones Spiritual Life, then all the Chanting, “counting beads”, saying prayers that were written by others long ago, and all of the other things are indeed pleasing to God.

I would like to recommend a book to you.
And I to you:
“Reasons to Believe” by Dr Scott Hahn ( a convert to Catholicism from fundementalism)

Peace
James
 
(From Above)
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This is the one of the biggest, (perhaps the biggest) errors of the RCC. That is how that church failed me. Throughout its history it has failed to teach this vitally important command of Christ; "Unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. For this reason (as well as others) I had to leave the catholic church.
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***Friend are you sure you don’t want to select a different excuse:shrug:

John 3:"Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, * he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. ***

***Friend you are speaking of the same thing Christ spoke and said but don’t seem to know it:o

In Baptism [one of the Seven Sacraments mandated and instituted by Jesus Himself and only available in His CC] One is “born again.” Precisely in that that Sacrament is one of the necessary Keys [see Mt.16:19] for entry into heaven, in that it makes one part of the Community of God, and completely removes both all sin and all the linguring effects of sin. It in a word “Perfects us” fulfilling Christ command: [Mt. 5:48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” So perfected that if one were to die without further sin, one would attain Heaven.[/COLOR]

So you sold yourself a bill of goods. *

You may also wish to consider this as it applies in a special way to fallen away catholics.

Heb. 6: 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. "

***Friend you gave up something else who obviously don’t understand; Christ REAL and actual presence in the Holy Eucharist."

Your already a TWO TIME Looser, I pray you don’t opt to strike out:eek:***

Love and prayers**
 
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