Help with a God debate

[snarflemike]

One very interesting question to ask an atheist is this:

If God (the Christian God) DOES exist, and offers unending joy and beauty and goodness to all who accept his free gift of salvation, as well as complete understanding of the perfection of his plan for all people, would you believe in him, love him, and accept his free gift of salvation?

It’s a very simple question, a “duh!” question, but it seems to cause great evasiveness among atheists.

 

[surritter]

The church also asserts that “no good can come out of evil”.

Not sure where you’re getting this stuff, but this is way off. Have you never heard of the greatest evil – murder of God – from which came the greatest good – the Resurrection?

A core tenet of Christianity is that God quite often DOES bring good out of evil, though often in a way that we in our myopia don’t see.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Innoruk
The church also asserts that “no good can come out of evil”.

I wonder if the problem is a misunderstanding of the teaching that one may not commit an evil act in order to attain some (perceived) good. I’m sure this is in the catechism…but I don’t recall where…

Peace
James

 

[ThinkingSapien]

If God (the Christian God) DOES exist, and offers unending joy and beauty and goodness to all who accept his free gift of salvation, as well as complete understanding of the perfection of his plan for all people, would you believe in him, love him, and accept his free gift of salvation?

It’s a very simple question, a “duh!” question, but it seems to cause great evasiveness among atheists.

Not quite. The phrase “believe in” can refer to several concepts. If by “believe in” you are referring to the concept of having a conviction for the existence of some object or entity then you could be referring to a concept that isn’t something that one may be able to do by volition. (If the person was convinced of the existence of a god of some type then she would already no longer be an atheist). And some of the other parts of the question you propose (ex: “accepting his free gift”) are contingent on this conviction. Without this conviction the question may come across as hypothetical and subjunctive.

Now if you did convince some one that God exists, that he matches the description of the god-concept that you present but has “accepted” these gifts woulds she still be considered an atheist at that moment?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

"The reason I don’t believe in god, Lathan, is because I don’t want to believe someone, something could sit there and make some guy millions in America, help the touchdown in a sports game or similar while allowing the poor to go hungry, allowing them to go homeless. Allowing Children in Africa to die of diseases long since treated by science…]

I could see some one saying “The reason I don’t want to worship…” or even “…the reason I am not convinced.” But when some one says “the reason I don’t want to believe” that doesn’t sound like an argument that some proposition is false. Perhaps I am over-analyzing the person’s word usage, but it doesn’t sound like an argument against the existence of God. But perhaps it’s not meant to be an argument. But in either case it does appear at the least there are some issues for which explanations would need to be provided before this person finds the god-concept that you are presenting to him to be serious (or consistent).

 

[snarflemike]

Not quite. The phrase “believe in” can refer to several concepts. If by “believe in” you are referring to the concept of having a conviction for the existence of some object or entity then you could be referring to a concept that isn’t something that one may be able to do by volition. (If the person was convinced of the existence of a god of some type then she would already no longer be an atheist). And some of the other parts of the question you propose (ex: “accepting his free gift”) are contingent on this conviction. Without this conviction the question may come across as hypothetical and subjunctive.

Now if you did convince some one that God exists, that he matches the description of the god-concept that you present but has “accepted” these gifts woulds she still be considered an atheist at that moment?

As I said, if the Christian God DID exist…

So, taking as a given for the question that this God exists, (and, to overcome your objection, you acknowledge this existence), would you love this God and accept his gift of salvation?

It’s not a slam-dunk question, as shown by the rebelling angels.

 

[JRKH]

I could see some one saying “The reason I don’t want to worship…” or even “…the reason I am not convinced.” But when some one says “the reason I don’t want to believe” that doesn’t sound like an argument that some proposition is false. Perhaps I am over-analyzing the person’s word usage, but it doesn’t sound like an argument against the existence of God. But perhaps it’s not meant to be an argument. But in either case it does appear at the least there are some issues for which explanations would need to be provided before this person finds the god-concept that you are presenting to him to be serious (or consistent).

I don’t think you are over analyzing here at all. After all, words are how we communicate and it is incumbent on a person to try to be as clear as possible. After all, when a person responds it can only be to what is said - and if there is need for greater clarity that must come from conversation.

Anyway - - I noticed the same thing that you did but your post helps to clarify.
The person is saying that he does not want to believe is because of what he perceives God to be. The entire rest of his post is an exposition of God as he defines God…not as the Catholic Church defines God.

So as you say there needs to be discussion and explanation in order to reach a greater understanding and consensus.

Peace
James

 

[Portofino]

As I said, if the Christian God DID exist…

So, taking as a given for the question that this God exists, (and, to overcome your objection, you acknowledge this existence), would you love this God and accept his gift of salvation?

It’s not a slam-dunk question, as shown by the rebelling angels.

That’s as tough a question to pose to an atheist as someone posing to a Christian, “if Allah existed, would you love Allah and accept his gift of salvation?” What that implies, of course, is that you would obey all of Allah’s commandments – and you may not be particularly thrilled by all of Allah’s commandments.

I wouldn’t be surprised if a Christian would have the urge to say, “if Allah existed… But Allah doesn’t exist”; and, failing that, to say “I really don’t know…” (for example, what if Allah wants you to commit jihad, as a way of meriting salvation?)

So it is a tough question, certainly, because not all non-Christians are thrilled with the Christian conception of God, just as not all non-Muslims are thrilled with the Muslim conception of God.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Lathan, this may have already been covered in the previous posts, but…

Maybe instead of going on the defensive, agree with him. I don’t imagine you believe in the God your friend is describing either. He is, in fact, very right to call the God he describes unworthy of belief.

But that’s not the God you believe in. It’s not the God of Christianity. The God of Christianity is not a magic genie in the sky granting prayer-wishes. He’s not some imperial potentate arrayed in splendid robes surrounded by cowed courtiers who fear for their lives at every capricious word he utters. He’s a God who looks much more like an innocent man unjustly accused of a crime who submits to the violent intentions of his murderers (us) rather than harm a hair on their heads…and then shows them the sort of God he is by forgiving them and rising again not as a God of wrath or vengeance or death-dealing power, but as LOVE.

This is the sort of God that we tear at again and again and again in our wrath, *our *death-dealing, who instead of “smiting” us and having done with it, HEALS, restores, renews, and, as the canticle of Hezekiah says, loves our souls “into deliverance from the Pit of Corruption,” the Pit of our own violent self-seeking.

That’s the God you believe in. Not Magic Genie Fairy Godmother God who gets it all sorted with a wave of a wand. Our God is found with the victim, with the oppressed, with the slum-dweller, with the broken-hearted, with the despairing, with the outcast, with the abused, with the criminal in prison, with the over-worked, the over-burdened, the exhausted, the one who is ready to give up. And he’s calling us to those places where he dwells, that are so close to his own pierced heart, so that we can be the Love in the world that he has called us to be; so that we can minister in his name, by his authority and with his healing love to his own broken body.

Atheist critiques of faith should really be listened to–they can help us determine what it is we believe and what it is that we believe that is not actually worthy of belief–which is to say, where our belief becomes idolatry. The idea of God that most atheists think we believe in is, let’s face it, a really bad idea–and they’re doing us a great kindness by pointing that out to us and helping us abandon our idols. It’s our job to return the favor and show them who God is by living into our call to love by mirroring in our lives the self-desolating love of Christ.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[JRKH]

That’s as tough a question to pose to an atheist as someone posing to a Christian, “if Allah existed, would you love Allah and accept his gift of salvation?” What that implies, of course, is that you would obey all of Allah’s commandments – and you may not be particularly thrilled by all of Allah’s commandments.

I wouldn’t be surprised if a Christian would have the urge to say, “if Allah existed… But Allah doesn’t exist”; and, failing that, to say “I really don’t know…” (for example, what if Allah wants you to commit jihad, as a way of meriting salvation?)

So it is a tough question, certainly, because not all non-Christians are thrilled with the Christian conception of God, just as not all non-Muslims are thrilled with the Muslim conception of God.

Indeed…But I have to wonder if the believer and the non-believer don’t have profoundly different ideas of what the “Christian conception of God” is.

I say this because even with Christianity I think you can find some variation in the concept of God - or at least how God is described and/or explained.
There are those Christians who hold to a more “OT” - “fire and brimstone” - understanding of God and there are those who hold to a much more “NT” - “loving and merciful” - understanding.
These re displayed in varying degrees across Calvinists - to Arminians (sp?) - to Universalists and dispensationalists.

So if the non-believer has received his understanding of the Christian God from a Five Point Calvinist - he might find the arguments of a Catholic to be quite different because our description of God is quite different from the Five Point Calvinist.

Peace
James

 

[petra22]

Josh987654321,
Thank you for your post. I bet we all know someone who has doubts about God, whether or not He exists. I’m thinking of a son-in-law in my family. Thank you for showing me where to point him for further research… (he thinks he’s a scientist and scientists can’t believe in God!) I loved the stories, even read them to my “on the fence husband”…) Hope it helps with all our athiest friends… Thanks again.

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

I had an hour conversation with this man via skype and I recorded the whole thing with Fraps.
He is so smart and had interesting viewpoints of concepts that I never thought of.

I think that some Atheists and Agnostics are actually a blessing from God to help us apologists, and give us reason to further research (strengthen) our faith.
I’m trying to think of a way to share our conversation for everyone to hear. It would take a month to upload to youtube with my internet connection (video is about an hour long and I have Hughes Net). From this video you can really look at the Atheist viewpoint.

He gave reason that contradicted a lot of counter-arguments in this thread simply by his theory that morals are not universally standard (they are human understood) and reinforced it with the fact that morals have changed throughout time. For example, 15 years ago, a homosexuality movement would have been unheard off. 30 years ago, dancing was considered sinful.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

There is no joy in atheism because it is a negative philosophy. Somehow God (who does not exist) must be to blame for all the evils in the world if He did exist. But atheist anger does not go away because God is declared to be dead. Instead, that anger is directed at the world in general. In particular, it is directed at religious people because religion alone is the key to destroying anger and bringing peace of mind. The peace and joy of the Christian life is to be suppressed, mocked, persecuted to the extent possible.

There is no atheist anthem on July 4th, no atheist carol on December 25th.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Gospel

**He gave reason that contradicted a lot of counter-arguments in this thread simply by his theory that morals are not universally standard (they are human understood) and reinforced it with the fact that morals have changed throughout time. For example, 15 years ago, a homosexuality movement would have been unheard off. 30 years ago, dancing was considered sinful. **

This is the way to answer him. Slavery is always evil. Abortion is always evil. Child abuse is always evil. Sodomy is always evil. Genocide is always evil. Etc.

Don’t fall for moral relativism. It’s a killer philosophy.

 

[balto]

He gave reason that contradicted a lot of counter-arguments in this thread simply by his theory that morals are not universally standard (they are human understood) and reinforced it with the fact that morals have changed throughout time. For example, 15 years ago, a homosexuality movement would have been unheard off. 30 years ago, dancing was considered sinful.

If he contradicted anyone it was himself. He started out by trying to make an objective claim that if God exists then various evils would not exist. But now he’s saying that morality is subjective. So how does he make the claim that the Christian God is evil? By his own admission that’s just his opinion and can be dismissed since it was asserted with no objective basis.

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

Grace & Peace!

Lathan, this may have already been covered in the previous posts, but…

Maybe instead of going on the defensive, agree with him. I don’t imagine you believe in the God your friend is describing either. He is, in fact, very right to call the God he describes unworthy of belief.

But that’s not the God you believe in. It’s not the God of Christianity. The God of Christianity is not a magic genie in the sky granting prayer-wishes. He’s not some imperial potentate arrayed in splendid robes surrounded by cowed courtiers who fear for their lives at every capricious word he utters. He’s a God who looks much more like an innocent man unjustly accused of a crime who submits to the violent intentions of his murderers (us) rather than harm a hair on their heads…and then shows them the sort of God he is by forgiving them and rising again not as a God of wrath or vengeance or death-dealing power, but as LOVE.

This is the sort of God that we tear at again and again and again in our wrath, *our *death-dealing, who instead of “smiting” us and having done with it, HEALS, restores, renews, and, as the canticle of Hezekiah says, loves our souls “into deliverance from the Pit of Corruption,” the Pit of our own violent self-seeking.

That’s the God you believe in. Not Magic Genie Fairy Godmother God who gets it all sorted with a wave of a wand. Our God is found with the victim, with the oppressed, with the slum-dweller, with the broken-hearted, with the despairing, with the outcast, with the abused, with the criminal in prison, with the over-worked, the over-burdened, the exhausted, the one who is ready to give up. And he’s calling us to those places where he dwells, that are so close to his own pierced heart, so that we can be the Love in the world that he has called us to be; so that we can minister in his name, by his authority and with his healing love to his own broken body.

Atheist critiques of faith should really be listened to–they can help us determine what it is we believe and what it is that we believe that is not actually worthy of belief–which is to say, where our belief becomes idolatry. The idea of God that most atheists think we believe in is, let’s face it, a really bad idea–and they’re doing us a great kindness by pointing that out to us and helping us abandon our idols. It’s our job to return the favor and show them who God is by living into our call to love by mirroring in our lives the self-desolating love of Christ.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

That was beautiful.

Gospel

**He gave reason that contradicted a lot of counter-arguments in this thread simply by his theory that morals are not universally standard (they are human understood) and reinforced it with the fact that morals have changed throughout time. For example, 15 years ago, a homosexuality movement would have been unheard off. 30 years ago, dancing was considered sinful. **

This is the way to answer him. Slavery is always evil. Abortion is always evil. Child abuse is always evil. Sodomy is always evil. Genocide is always evil. Etc.

Don’t fall for moral relativism. It’s a killer philosophy.

I guess I’m not seeing it the way you are. I mean, we are witnessing changes in the society we live in. The things that people believe in today are not the same things that people believed in 15, 30, or 50 years ago.

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

If he contradicted anyone it was himself. He started out by trying to make an objective claim that if God exists then various evils would not exist. But now he’s saying that morality is subjective. So how does he make the claim that the Christian God is evil? By his own admission that’s just his opinion and can be dismissed since it was asserted with no objective basis.

I’m sorry, but you don’t correctly see his view point. The reason he doesn’t believe in God is because he can’t even imagine (and nobody should be able to) a God with unlimited power that just sits idle while so much evil is in the world. And I have yet to hear a logical answer that responds to why God can’t just make it all better like we know he has the power to do. I don’t think anyone knows. I guess I’ll just have to ask him “Why didn’t you stop Hitler?” when I make it into his kingdom.

The moral discussion was on a completely new topic.

 

[polytropos]

God can make good come out of evil. Who would admit that they needed God if they had never once failed? What if Jesus came to die “not for our sins, per se, but for what technically could have been our sins if we were allowed to commit them”?

 

[josh987654321]

Josh987654321,
Thank you for your post. I bet we all know someone who has doubts about God, whether or not He exists. I’m thinking of a son-in-law in my family. Thank you for showing me where to point him for further research… (he thinks he’s a scientist and scientists can’t believe in God!) I loved the stories, even read them to my “on the fence husband”…) Hope it helps with all our athiest friends… Thanks again.

Thank you, I hope so also God Bless You.

Deo Volente;10936318:

Grace & Peace!

Lathan, this may have already been covered in the previous posts, but…

Maybe instead of going on the defensive, agree with him. I don’t imagine you believe in the God your friend is describing either. He is, in fact, very right to call the God he describes unworthy of belief.

But that’s not the God you believe in. It’s not the God of Christianity. The God of Christianity is not a magic genie in the sky granting prayer-wishes. He’s not some imperial potentate arrayed in splendid robes surrounded by cowed courtiers who fear for their lives at every capricious word he utters. He’s a God who looks much more like an innocent man unjustly accused of a crime who submits to the violent intentions of his murderers (us) rather than harm a hair on their heads…and then shows them the sort of God he is by forgiving them and rising again not as a God of wrath or vengeance or death-dealing power, but as LOVE.

This is the sort of God that we tear at again and again and again in our

wrath, *our *death-dealing, who instead of “smiting” us and having done with it, HEALS, restores, renews, and, as the canticle of Hezekiah says, loves our souls “into deliverance from the Pit of Corruption,” the Pit of our own violent self-seeking.

That’s the God you believe in. Not Magic Genie Fairy Godmother God who gets it all sorted with a wave of a wand. Our God is found with the victim, with the oppressed, with the slum-dweller, with the broken-hearted, with the despairing, with the outcast, with the abused, with the criminal in prison, with the over-worked, the over-burdened, the exhausted, the one who is ready to give up. And he’s calling us to those places where he dwells, that are so close to his own pierced heart, so that we can be the Love in the world that he has called us to be; so that we can minister in his name, by his authority and with his healing love to his own broken body.

Atheist critiques of faith should really be listened to–they can help us determine what it is we believe and what it is that we believe that is not actually worthy of belief–which is to say, where our belief becomes idolatry. The idea of God that most atheists think we believe in is, let’s face it, a really bad idea–and they’re doing us a great kindness by pointing that out to us and helping us abandon our idols. It’s our job to return the favor and show them who God is by living into our call to love by mirroring in our lives the self-desolating love of Christ.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

That was beautiful.

x2

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Gospel

**I guess I’m not seeing it the way you are. I mean, we are witnessing changes in the society we live in. The things that people believe in today are not the same things that people believed in 15, 30, or 50 years ago. **

What does 15, 39, or 50 years have to do with anything?

If thirty years from now people start to believe in slavery, does that make slavery moral?