Help with a Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic

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JamesG

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Perhaps some people here could provide some guidance.

I’m afraid this person has lost a lot of faith in the Catholic Church after Vatican 2.

I will list some of the most common complaints he has.
  1. The Church not revealing the third secret of Fatima
  2. The Church’s failure to consecrate Russia to Mary (apparently consecrating the world isn’t valid)
  3. He thinks that the Third Secret and the reason for the church not revealing it is because it’s all about the church and their sins. He goes so far as to associate the molestation of children to this argument.
  4. The fact that after V2 the church spent millions of dollars renovating the churches and failed to give that money to the poor.
  5. The fact that the church white washed all the beautifully pained statues at his church.
  6. How he felt that the Holy Spirit left the church after all the changes.
  7. The taking of the host in the hand and how it contradicts the consecration of the priests finger tips
  8. How we no longer have time at church to pray the rosary
  9. That the church no longer instructs people at mass regarding sins and of the different types of sins.
  10. He interprets much of the bible literally. Apparently that’s what the nuns taught him (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc)
  11. He does support some things from Vatican 2, but not everything (for example the use of the native language throughout the mass)
  12. He is very worried that if a priest is not right with God that the Eucharist the real presence will not exist. As a result he is extremely critical of priests during mass and their hidden motives or hidden sins.
The last time I talked to him he raised his scapular and rosary in the air and said, “I will believe in this before I believe anything now”. Of course he doesn’t consider much of what I say because I have not experienced the church before Vatican 2.

Finally, he is not a very literate man (with only grade 9 education) and he gets very excited about this subject. I think the main problem he has is that the Mass isn’t doing it for him. For him it feels too protestant. For his faith he needs prayer and the feeling of being in a holy place. These are things that he does not find in the Catholic churches anymore.

How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?
 
I think we could argue various issues with him, but essentially the only one who can convince him would be God. He has so many buttressses to the complex structure of his alienation that I’ll just pray for the Holy Spirit to speak to his mind and soul. I’ll keep him in my prayers and Masses.

As it happens, the Third secret has been revealed. I’ll PM it to you. Jesus said the first Mass during the Last Supper in the native language of his apostles, by the way. Jesus’ own language was Aramaic.
 
JamesG said:
  1. How he felt that the Holy Spirit left the church after all the changes.
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Of everything on the list, this is the one that is most disturbing. Most of the other stuff he is free to believe and worship in with a Traditional spirituality. I think I would focus on this one issue while helping him find means of having a more traditional worship and sacramentals. I think the simplicitity of the argument that the Holy Spirit simply can not fail is the best approach. He either guided the Church and is guiding the Church, or He never did. God did not bring the Church into his particular generation as the acme of worship, then bail.

But in the other issues have solutions, hopefully some in your area. If he wants the rosary prayed before Mass and his parish does not do that, he could talk to the priest an volunteer to lead it, for example. If something does not exist that you need, have a solution in hand before talking to a parish priest. That way you bring something to add, not another demand to be met.
 
JamesG said:
Perhaps some people here could provide some guidance.

I’m afraid this person has lost a lot of faith in the Catholic Church after Vatican 2.

I will list some of the most common complaints he has.
  1. The Church not revealing the third secret of Fatima
  2. The Church’s failure to consecrate Russia to Mary (apparently consecrating the world isn’t valid)
  3. He thinks that the Third Secret and the reason for the church not revealing it is because it’s all about the church and their sins. He goes so far as to associate the molestation of children to this argument.
  4. The fact that after V2 the church spent millions of dollars renovating the churches and failed to give that money to the poor.
  5. The fact that the church white washed all the beautifully pained statues at his church.
  6. How he felt that the Holy Spirit left the church after all the changes.
  7. The taking of the host in the hand and how it contradicts the consecration of the priests finger tips
  8. How we no longer have time at church to pray the rosary
  9. That the church no longer instructs people at mass regarding sins and of the different types of sins.
  10. He interprets much of the bible literally. Apparently that’s what the nuns taught him (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc)
  11. He does support some things from Vatican 2, but not everything (for example the use of the native language throughout the mass)
  12. He is very worried that if a priest is not right with God that the Eucharist the real presence will not exist. As a result he is extremely critical of priests during mass and their hidden motives or hidden sins.
The last time I talked to him he raised his scapular and rosary in the air and said, “I will believe in this before I believe anything now”. Of course he doesn’t consider much of what I say because I have not experienced the church before Vatican 2.

Finally, he is not a very literate man (with only grade 9 education) and he gets very excited about this subject. I think the main problem he has is that the Mass isn’t doing it for him. For him it feels too protestant. For his faith he needs prayer and the feeling of being in a holy place. These are things that he does not find in the Catholic churches anymore.

How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?
Click to expand...
People with poor educations are usually poorly catechized, because they do not have any interest in reading or studying the faith themselves. May times they follow their emotions which is why he seems stuck in private revelation and devotions. He has a poor understanding of what Catholics really believe.
 
JamesG said:
Perhaps some people here could provide some guidance.

I’m afraid this person has lost a lot of faith in the Catholic Church after Vatican 2.

I will list some of the most common complaints he has.
  1. The Church not revealing the third secret of Fatima
    It has been revealed and had to do with the shooting of John Paul II.
  2. The Church’s failure to consecrate Russia to Mary (apparently consecrating the world isn’t valid)
    Russia was consecrated to Mary by John Paul II.
  3. He thinks that the Third Secret and the reason for the church not revealing it is because it’s all about the church and their sins.
    See #1 & 2 above.
He goes so far as to associate the molestation of children to this argument. How sad that he makes this jump in conclusions.
4. The fact that after V2 the church spent millions of dollars renovating the churches and failed to give that money to the poor.
The Church does not and did not renovate churches. Individual parishes did on their own, and paid for the renovations themselves.
5. The fact that the church white washed all the beautifully pained statues at his church.
That was a personal choice by whoever administers his parish. It had nothing to do with VII.
6. How he felt that the Holy Spirit left the church after all the changes.
If the oly Spirit ;eft the Church, then Jesus lied when He told us that He would send the Paraclete.
7. The taking of the host in the hand and how it contradicts the consecration of the priests finger tips
Receiving the Eucharist in the hand is an indult, that is, by permission. The ordinary way to receive is on the tongue.
8. How we no longer have time at church to pray the rosary
In my parish, the Rosary is prayed daily before Mass and at Adoration.
9. That the church no longer instructs people at mass regarding sins and of the different types of sins.
Depends on the priest who is giving the homily.
10. He interprets much of the bible literally. Apparently that’s what the nuns taught him (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc)
Nothing wrong with that. One of the 4 ways to read & understand Scripture is the Literal.
11. He does support some things from Vatican 2, but not everything (for example the use of the native language throughout the mass)
Use of the vernacular is permitted, however, Latin is still encouraged and permitted, as is Gregorian Chant!
12. He is very worried that if a priest is not right with God that the Eucharist the real presence will not exist. As a result he is extremely critical of priests during mass and their hidden motives or hidden sins.
The “rightness” of the priest has nothing to do with the validity of the Eucharist. His intention to consecrate does.

The last time I talked to him he raised his scapular and rosary in the air and said, “I will believe in this before I believe anything now”. Of course he doesn’t consider much of what I say because I have not experienced the church before Vatican 2.
I have experienced that Church before the Second Vatican Council. I also wear the Brown Scapular. I still follow the Magesterium of the Church because Jesus promised that the Church would be protected from error in matters of Faith & Morals.

Finally, he is not a very literate man (with only grade 9 education) and he gets very excited about this subject. I think the main problem he has is that the Mass isn’t doing it for him. For him it feels too protestant. For his faith he needs prayer and the feeling of being in a holy place. These are things that he does not find in the Catholic churches anymore.
Has nothing to do with his literacy level. It has everything to do with his obedience to the Church founded & protected by Jesus Christ.

How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?
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Research, provide him with documentation. and most of all, pray for him. Since he wears the Brown Scapular, pray to Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. I will pray for him too.

Peace,
Linda

Sorry, I’m not very good at using color! :o
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
People with poor educations are usually poorly catechized, because they do not have any interest in reading or studying the faith themselves. May times they follow their emotions which is why he seems stuck in private revelation and devotions. He has a poor understanding of what Catholics really believe.
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How does the Church reachout to those who are uneducated or have a learning disability?

Maybe I should find a book for youth that explains the Catholic church and its teachings . The problem is that I doubt there is a book that will explain vatican 2 in a way he can understand.

Also, where can I find information regarding #12 . I think I will start with that one.
 
JamesG said:
How does the Church reachout to those who are uneducated or have a learning disability?

Maybe I should find a book for youth that explains the Catholic church and its teachings . The problem is that I doubt there is a book that will explain vatican 2 in a way he can understand.

Also, where can I find information regarding #12 . I think I will start with that one.
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Try carm.org/apologetics/heresies/donatism

Belief that the personal sins of the minister of a sacrament impedes the sacrament is against Catholic teaching.
 
Some of the post-Vatican II liturgical changes, and the way traditional devotions were laughed to scorn or discontinued by the extremists and other clerical liberals was bound to do serious harm to the Faith of many of the children in Christ’s Church.

My heart really goes out to this “pre-Vatican II” man. I’m a pre-Vatican II man myself, but I have been blessed with a deeper education in the Church. John Henry Newman often stressed the importance of not inordinately tampering with the Liturgy and other devotions that would be bound to upset the Faithful. Alas, modern liberals have no need of counseling from an old long-dead Cardinal. 😦

I would try to heal this man’s poor broken heart, by gently showing him that, he is far from alone, and that most of the people that did this damage are either out of the picture or retired, or dead themselves. I would show him that the Church today is really no different from his old pre-Vatican II Church. The beliefs and doctrines are ALL still the SAME. Tell him that the new younger generation of priests are reclaiming our venerable past and re-invigorating their parishes with some of the same old devotions and practices of the pre-Vatican II Church. I would also tell him that it’s not really unusual for an Ecumenical Council to cause waves in the Church for the first couple of decades after one. It has historically been the case since the early Church. One can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs as it were. 😉

But mainly I would try to calm him down and show him how much is still the same, and how much that did change was not really lost forever, and may soon return.

If you can accomplish this much, I think his other wayward ideas may correct themselves, with the help of the Holy Spirit. 🙂
 
JamesG said:
Can you tell me if that teaching was also true before Vatican 2?
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Donatism was condemned in the 4th century AD, so yes.

the principle here is ex opere operato which was used in the Council of Trent.

saints.sqpn.com/ncd06116.htm

See also: newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm
“Ex opere operato”, i.e. by virtue of the action, means that the efficacy of the action of the sacraments does not depend on anything human, but solely on the will of God as expressed by Christ’s institution and promise.
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JamesG said:
How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?
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Find him a TLM parish. www.fssp.org or www.sspx.org

The Bugnini Mass (post V2) drove many people away and weakened the faith many remaining. Indeed it is a protestantized ceremony motivated in ecumenical spirit. It didn’t work as Lutherans are still Lutherans, etc, and we spent forty years with watered down Catholicism.
 
thanks for your help everyone.

To continue this discussion further…

Was there ever an attempt made by the Church to white wash all the painted statues or was that just something that happened at the Irish Catholic Church he went to.

Could such an act have been done out of spite?
 
Was there ever an attempt made by the Church to white wash all the painted statues or was that just something that happened at the Irish Catholic Church he went to.
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Could such an act have been done out of spite?
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No, I don’t believe it was spite, and no it was never anything that the church required.

I believe that there are still a lot of people within the Church, that have control over Church decoration, and liturgy that have horrible taste, or no taste really. They have given us the miserable songs we still have to sing that date to the 70’s and 80’s and even the miserable translation of the Bible used in the Liturgy to this day.

It is still something we are dealing with at most parishes. 😦 I have seen some pretty ghastly church decorations in my own neck of the woods here, so I can imagine what horrors are taking place elsewhere. 😦

Things will get better eventually, once these old liberals are gotten rid of. :rolleyes:
 
JamesG said:
thanks for your help everyone.

To continue this discussion further…

Was there ever an attempt made by the Church to white wash all the painted statues or was that just something that happened at the Irish Catholic Church he went to.

Could such an act have been done out of spite?
Click to expand...
Not The Church. Unfortunately during the late 60s, America had a tendency to try to modernize and simplify churches based on a misunderstanding of the call of Vatican II. What your friend experienced may have been a particular parish’s actions.
 
JamesG said:
Perhaps some people here could provide some guidance.

I’m afraid this person has lost a lot of faith in the Catholic Church after Vatican 2.

I will list some of the most common complaints he has.
  1. The Church not revealing the third secret of Fatima
  2. The Church’s failure to consecrate Russia to Mary (apparently consecrating the world isn’t valid)
  3. He thinks that the Third Secret and the reason for the church not revealing it is because it’s all about the church and their sins. He goes so far as to associate the molestation of children to this argument.
  4. The fact that after V2 the church spent millions of dollars renovating the churches and failed to give that money to the poor.
  5. The fact that the church white washed all the beautifully pained statues at his church.
  6. How he felt that the Holy Spirit left the church after all the changes.
  7. The taking of the host in the hand and how it contradicts the consecration of the priests finger tips
  8. How we no longer have time at church to pray the rosary
  9. That the church no longer instructs people at mass regarding sins and of the different types of sins.
  10. He interprets much of the bible literally. Apparently that’s what the nuns taught him (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc)
  11. He does support some things from Vatican 2, but not everything (for example the use of the native language throughout the mass)
  12. He is very worried that if a priest is not right with God that the Eucharist the real presence will not exist. As a result he is extremely critical of priests during mass and their hidden motives or hidden sins.
The last time I talked to him he raised his scapular and rosary in the air and said, “I will believe in this before I believe anything now”. Of course he doesn’t consider much of what I say because I have not experienced the church before Vatican 2.

Finally, he is not a very literate man (with only grade 9 education) and he gets very excited about this subject. I think the main problem he has is that the Mass isn’t doing it for him. For him it feels too protestant. For his faith he needs prayer and the feeling of being in a holy place. These are things that he does not find in the Catholic churches anymore.

How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?
Click to expand...
A lot of this nonsense seems very familiar.Could he be a follower of “the Fatima Priest”,the disobedient Father Nicholas Gruner?If so give him some background on Fr.Gruner and encourage him to stop reading the monthly publication from the Fatima Centre that he probably receives.
 
JamesG said:
How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?
Click to expand...
Does he go to church anymore? If not, you could help him find a FSSP or SSPX Latin parish to join.
 
Your friend is mostly right the faith of the people just before Vat. II was almost ripped right from them.
James G: Perhaps some people here could provide some guidance.
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I’m afraid this person has lost a lot of trust in the Catholic Church after Vatican 2.
I will list some of the most common complaints he has.
Click to expand...
  1. The Church not revealing the third secret of Fatima
  2. The Church’s failure to consecrate Russia to Mary (apparently consecrating the world isn’t valid)
  3. He thinks that the Third Secret and the reason for the church not revealing it is because it’s all about the church and their sins. He goes so far as to associate the molestation of children to this argument.
Click to expand...
He is correct. There was no consecration of Russia. The world is not Russia. If the Blessed Mother wanted the Pope and bishops to say “world” she would have said “world.” She didn’t, she said Russia. I mean it is crazy it hasn’t been done yet. I don’t see how this is such a hard thing. It would have taken 5 minutes in the large synods JPII had ( as well as at Vat. II). As a matter of fact I spoke with a bishop at the synod and he was very disappointed that JPII didn’t do it. It would have been less controversial than lifting an excommunication of a Holocaust denier.😃
  1. The fact that after V2 the church spent millions of dollars renovating the churches and failed to give that money to the poor.
  2. The fact that the church white washed all the beautifully pained statues at his church.
Click to expand...
This is true. “The preferential option for the poor” was only true if they couldn’t make a church ugly. The Church still wastes millions on printing throw away missiles with the mass readings.
  1. How he felt that the Holy Spirit left the church after all the changes.
Click to expand...
This isn’t an objective critique but I can understand it by the ridiculous music they use. The new Gloria melody is worse than a camp song.
With all the changes after Vat. II this was the intention of the council fathers— to discourage and alienate the faithful.
  1. The taking of the host in the hand and how it contradicts the consecration of the priests finger tips
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This wouldn’t be the reason I would use. I have 2 main objections 1. every particle no matter how small is Jesus Christ. This why the priest MUST wash his fingers after handling the sacred spices and all the vessels. 2. Things you can touch are less respected than things you can’t, e.g. museums.
EDITAE SAEPE Encyclical of Pope Pius X, May 26, 1910 #32
False reformers “seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ.”[58] They listen to the deceitful invitation once addressed to the Divine Master, "Manifest thyself to the world."[59] They repeat the ambitious words, “**Let us also get us a name” **
  1. How we no longer have time at church to pray the rosary
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True I never see priests leading the rosary.
  1. That the church no longer instructs people at mass regarding sins and of the different types of sins.
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This is true. I have never heard a sermon in the church around me ever talk about sin or even the the distinction between mortal and vienial
  1. He interprets much of the bible literally. Apparently that’s what the nuns taught him (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc)
Click to expand...
This has always been sound principal of Catholic biblical study.

Principles of Catholic Interpretation in the Pontifical Biblical Commission’s The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (1993)
#12-13"The spiritual sense is always founded on the literal sense." ref. here
  1. He does support some things from Vatican 2, but not everything (for example the use of the native language throughout the mass)
Click to expand...
I agree this would have been good if they didn’t change the mass so much.
  1. He is very worried that if a priest is not right with God that the Eucharist the real presence will not exist. As a result he is extremely critical of priests during mass and their hidden motives or hidden sins.
Click to expand...
He is wrong on this 😦
This was the heresy promoted by Jan Hus, who was burned at the councle of Constance:
  1. “Priests living criminally in any manner whatsoever, defile the power of the priesthood, and as unfaithful sons they think unfaithfully regarding the seven sacraments of the Church, the keys, the duties, the censures, customs, ceremonies, and sacred affairs of the Church, its veneration of relics, indulgences, and orders.”( DZ 634)=condemned
The last time I talked to him he raised his scapular and rosary in the air and said, “I will believe in this before I believe anything now”.
Click to expand...
This is great. No problem here.
Of course he doesn’t consider much of what I say because I have not experienced the church before Vatican 2.
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Finally, he is not a very literate man (with only grade 9 education) and he gets very excited about this subject.
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"(with only grade 9 education)" seems like a very arrogant statement.Why does it matter if he has not had a long formal education? Are you saying he is stupid?
I think the main problem he has is that the Mass isn’t doing it for him. For him it feels too protestant.
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He is right. It is very protestant. Go to a Lutheran service sometime.
For his faith he needs prayer and the feeling of being in a holy place. These are things that he does not find in the Catholic churches anymore.
Click to expand...
Was his church “uglified”?
How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?
Click to expand...
Yeah look at the traditional movement. It comes from a lot of people who saw the change and didn’t like it.
 
JamesG said:
thanks for your help everyone.
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James G,

In case you haven’t noticed, there will be some, that instead of offering help as you asked will defend this person instead of responding to your question. Be wary of what we posters post. Also, I would be cautious with the SSPX. While there is some argument that this might be a better things, it could also exacerbate the problem if that particular chapel has like-minded folks that do not support our Holy Father.
 
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