Help with a Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic

[JamesG]

A lot of this nonsense seems very familiar.Could he be a follower of “the Fatima Priest”,the disobedient Father Nicholas Gruner?If so give him some background on Fr.Gruner and encourage him to stop reading the monthly publication from the Fatima Centre that he probably receives.

Funny you should say that. He does get those monthly publications. I also still receive them. The last one I read Father Nicholas was very upset that his organization was denied charitable status in Canada.

After I read that the Fatima priest was suspended I have yet to cancel those publications.

With that said; however, I do keep an open mind regarding some of the things that Fr Gruner has experienced. For example, the time Hindus were allowed to pray at the shrine of Fatima. Shortly thereafter, Fr. Nicholas Gruner along with several other Catholics went there to re sanctify the shrine and were rudely interrupted by the Nuns Sadly, the Hindus were shown more respect then the Catholics there praying the rosary. I think the video of that event is on youtube.

 

[JamesG]

This is true. “The preferential option for the poor” was only true if they couldn’t make a church ugly. The Church still wastes millions on printing throw away missiles with the mass readings.

Could you provide any evidence to support this claim?

This isn’t an objective critique but I can understand it by the ridiculous music they use. The new Gloria melody is worse than a camp song.
With all the changes after Vat. II this was the intention of the council fathers— to discourage and alienate the faithful.

I don’t agree with you on this issue. Why would you claim that the church wanted to discourage people? That seems rather counter productive.

True I never see priests leading the rosary.

Well I have seen priests leading the rosary. But I would agree that there are many priests who don’t like to bless statues, scapulars, or a rosary. Some priests just don’t follow those private revelations.

This is true. I have never heard a sermon in the church around me ever talk about sin or even the the distinction between mortal and vienial

why do you think that is important?

This has always been sound principal of Catholic biblical study.

Are you saying that as Catholics we should believe that God created one man and one woman? If that is true then how do you explain all the people that exist today? Are you suggesting that incest was practiced and allowed by God?
How you can even begin to say that we should take an OT as literal fact is just stupidity.

I agree this would have been good if they didn’t change the mass so much.

Well perhaps it should been changed over time, but that all depends of the community and the culture.

"(with only grade 9 education)" seems like a very arrogant statement.Why does it matter if he has not had a long formal education? Are you saying he is stupid?

no, I’m saying that he has a learning disability.

Was his church “uglified”?

Well… his church was St Peter in Chains Peterborough. You can do some image searches on Google. You will see how nice it looks inside. I guess the problem is that it looked even more spectacular then it does now. I mean compared to the church I go to this church is just amazing.
actually, here is a flickr image.

flickr.com/photos/snuffy/979665022/

That huge mural on the wall of the last super that is just awe inspiring.

Sadly, very few people attend church there. But that is mostly because the entire city is void of industry and families have moved away.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

actually, here is a flickr image.

flickr.com/photos/snuffy/979665022/

That huge mural on the wall of the last super that is just awe inspiring.

Notice the lack of a Crucifix in the Sanctuary? I’m sure it would have had one when that church was built. That is typical of how liberal’s Protestantized Catholic church buildings.

 

[pnewton]

Could you provide any evidence to support this claim?

Realize that calling money spent on missalettes a waste is just an opinion. Most would probably consider it money well spent. And while I do not know how much is spent, millions may not be that much since it only equates to one tenth of a penny per Catholic for every million he is talking about.

 

[Ockham]

From an environmental perspective I don’t like the missalettes. They get tossed at the end the year. It is also a waste of financial resources.

For the TLM I use my mother-in-laws missal. It was purchased in the 1950’s.

Just another benefit of tradition.

 

[JamesG]

Notice the lack of a Crucifix in the Sanctuary? I’m sure it would have had one when that church was built. That is typical of how liberal’s Protestantized Catholic church buildings.

I will ask him about that. Apparently the church used to have a raised platform outside the alter on the right for the sermon (pre-vatican 2) I don’t know when the mural was created. Perhaps they removed the crucifix in favor of the mural.

 

[Genesis315]

1. The Church not revealing the third secret of Fatima
2. The Church’s failure to consecrate Russia to Mary (apparently consecrating the world isn’t valid)
3. He thinks that the Third Secret and the reason for the church not revealing it is because it’s all about the church and their sins. He goes so far as to associate the molestation of children to this argument.

This is all just speculation. That’s really all that can be really said. And even ***IF ***it were true, so what? The sins of prelates is nothing new.

1. The fact that after V2 the church spent millions of dollars renovating the churches and failed to give that money to the poor.
2. The fact that the church white washed all the beautifully pained statues at his church.

This was a shame–but the fact is it began in the decade or so before Vatican II. Vatican II didn’t say anything about these things at all, but for whatever reason, such misguided destruction spread more quickly to many churches afterward.

1. How he felt that the Holy Spirit left the church after all the changes.

That would contradict the promises of Our Lord.

1. The taking of the host in the hand and how it contradicts the consecration of the priests finger tips

This is permitted, but not required. Again, Vatican II didn’t even mention this at all. The priests hands consecrate the Lord–but throughout history the practice of communion in the hand was not unknown.

1. How we no longer have time at church to pray the rosary.
2. That the church no longer instructs people at mass regarding sins and of the different types of sins.

This varies from church to church–but again, it really has nothing to do with Vatican II.

1. He interprets much of the bible literally. Apparently that’s what the nuns taught him (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc)

That’s fine to do.

1. He does support some things from Vatican 2, but not everything (for example the use of the native language throughout the mass)

ok.

1. He is very worried that if a priest is not right with God that the Eucharist the real presence will not exist. As a result he is extremely critical of priests during mass and their hidden motives or hidden sins.

This issue has come up a lot in history. The fact is that the sacraments are gifts from God and are not earned by the merit of the minister.

The last time I talked to him he raised his scapular and rosary in the air and said, “I will believe in this before I believe anything now”.

I don’t know what he means by that, but the Rosary and Scapular are perfectly acceptable and encouraged devotions.

Of course he doesn’t consider much of what I say because I have not experienced the church before Vatican 2.

Finally, he is not a very literate man (with only grade 9 education) and he gets very excited about this subject. I think the main problem he has is that the Mass isn’t doing it for him. For him it feels too protestant. For his faith he needs prayer and the feeling of being in a holy place. These are things that he does not find in the Catholic churches anymore.

Is there a TLM offered nearby? Here’s a partial list:
ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm

How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?

Somewhat–a lot of people were hurt by certain draconian changes taken by many priests in the wake of the Council which never should have been done and which the Council didn’t even address. Patience and compassion are definitely the order of the day when interacting with people who have been hurt in such a way.

 

[I_Believe]

Perhaps some people here could provide some guidance.

I’m afraid this person has lost a lot of faith in the Catholic Church after Vatican 2.

How do I help him? Are these feelings common with people who have experienced the change in the Church?

How can you blame him ?

"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken him?” -Pope Pius XII

“Not to oppose error is to approve it, and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”

• Pope St. Felix III

“What if some novel contagion seek to infect the whole Church, and not merely a small portion of it? Then he will take care to cling to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any novel deceit.” -St. Vincent of Lerins († 445)

“The day the Church abandons her universal tongue is the day before she returns to the catacombs.” -Pope Pius XII

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

“It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace.” -St. Robert Bellarmine

“In recent times, even in materialist North America, the growth of the Church was magnificent with the liturgy being kept in Latin. The attempts of the Protestants have failed, and Protestantism uses the vernacular. We ask again: Why the change, especially since changes in this matter involve many difficulties and great dangers? All of us here at the Council can recall the fundamental changes in the meaning of words in common use. Thus it follows that if the Sacred Liturgy were in the vernacular, the immutability of doctrine would be endangered.
The introduction of the vernacular should be separated from the action of the Mass. The Mass must remain as it is. Grave changes in the liturgy introduce grave changes in dogmata.”
-James Cardinal McIntyre addressing the Second Vatican Council.

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”

• G.K. Chesterton "

“Indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”

• Pope St. Pius X, Notre Charge Apostolique

Your friend has solid ground to stand on. Let him be a Catholic.