Help with a verse!

[aball1035]

I’m having a debate with a Protestant friend, and he wrote me:

“Reading through John 20:23 is important. Though Jesus was speaking directly to some of the apostles, he was not speaking to all. Thomas was not present for that little talk…does Thomas then not have the power to forgive or retain sins? The interesting thing comes right before it. He says to “Receive the Holy Spirit.” Since we have all received that gift, I think that is the condition for the following statements in 20:23.”

What do I say about Thomas?
Who has really recieved the Holy Spirit?

 

[NHInsider]

I’m having a debate with a Protestant friend, and he wrote me:

“Reading through John 20:23 is important. Though Jesus was speaking directly to some of the apostles, he was not speaking to all. Thomas was not present for that little talk…does Thomas then not have the power to forgive or retain sins? The interesting thing comes right before it. He says to “Receive the Holy Spirit.” Since we have all received that gift, I think that is the condition for the following statements in 20:23.”

What do I say about Thomas?
Who has really recieved the Holy Spirit?

We all receive the Holy Spirit. We are not all ordained. St. Paul says different offices receive different gifts (I Cor. 12:27-31, where he explicitly ranks the offices and places the Apostles first). The fact that each of us is baptized into Jesus to carry out His ministry does not mean we all have the same role, that’s the whole point of the Body of Christ analogy.

Luther and Calvin, in their efforts to undermine the apostolic church, latched on to the “priesthood of all believers” as proof that Jesus did not intend to establish an ordained priesthood. If your Protestant friend is a Baptist, Pentecostal or non-denominational believer he has probably been taught that doctrine. It flies in the face of Scriptural and historical evidence of the offices of bishop, presbyter and deacon from the earliest days of the Church (unless they’re prepared to follow the Mormons into the argument that the early Christians had already lost the Truth during the age of the Apostles).

As to Thomas’ absence, we know that Our Lord met Thomas a week after He breathed on the rest of the Apostles. John does not tell us specifically that Jesus ordained Thomas then, but John tells us that he has not recorded everything. Acts tells us that Thomas was included in the company of the Apostles (the Eleven).

Hope that helps.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, we all receive the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit blesses different people with different gifts, as Paul explains repeatedly (some are teachers, some are healers, etc.). But how many of these were breathed upon by the new Resurrected Christ.

His “giving of the Holy Spirit” was in specific context of Forgiveness.

For one to claim that they have this same gift simply because they’ve received the Holy Spirit, implies that they also have the authority NOT TO FORGIVE sins.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I’m having a debate with a Protestant friend, and he wrote me:

“Reading through John 20:23 is important. Though Jesus was speaking directly to some of the apostles, he was not speaking to all. Thomas was not present for that little talk…does Thomas then not have the power to forgive or retain sins? The interesting thing comes right before it. He says to “Receive the Holy Spirit.” Since we have all received that gift, I think that is the condition for the following statements in 20:23.”

What do I say about Thomas?
Who has really recieved the Holy Spirit?

Remind you Protestant friend of Numbers 11:24-29

24And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.

25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

26But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

27And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

God told Moses to appoint 70 elders to help him govern the Israelites. These men were to go to the Tabernacle, only 68 showed up, but ALL 70 received the Holy Spirit and prophesied. My thought is that when God calls, He calls, and even if you are hiding in the cellar you are still called. Using Numbers 11 as a precedent, the fact that Thomas was not present when Jesus breathed on the disciples, does not mean that he did not receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins.

 

[Nita]

Remind you Protestant friend of Numbers 11:24-29

God told Moses to appoint 70 elders to help him govern the Israelites. These men were to go to the Tabernacle, only 68 showed up, but ALL 70 received the Holy Spirit and prophesied. My thought is that when God calls, He calls, and even if you are hiding in the cellar you are still called. Using Numbers 11 as a precedent, the fact that Thomas was not present when Jesus breathed on the disciples, does not mean that he did not receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins.

Very good prefiguring example Marsha. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[lucyuser]

There is one true God, One Son and one church guided by the Mother to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.They are available to all with faith. tell your friend that he/she would be better off investing their time in reading revelation 22:18 and that the Holy trinity is not guiding any other church other than the Roman Catholic Church. Protestantism is not a religion it was and is a rebelllion against roman Catholic teachings.

 

[aball1035]

We all receive the Holy Spirit. We are not all ordained. St. Paul says different offices receive different gifts (I Cor. 12:27-31, where he explicitly ranks the offices and places the Apostles first). The fact that each of us is baptized into Jesus to carry out His ministry does not mean we all have the same role, that’s the whole point of the Body of Christ analogy.

Luther and Calvin, in their efforts to undermine the apostolic church, latched on to the “priesthood of all believers” as proof that Jesus did not intend to establish an ordained priesthood. If your Protestant friend is a Baptist, Pentecostal or non-denominational believer he has probably been taught that doctrine. It flies in the face of Scriptural and historical evidence of the offices of bishop, presbyter and deacon from the earliest days of the Church (unless they’re prepared to follow the Mormons into the argument that the early Christians had already lost the Truth during the age of the Apostles).

As to Thomas’ absence, we know that Our Lord met Thomas a week after He breathed on the rest of the Apostles. John does not tell us specifically that Jesus ordained Thomas then, but John tells us that he has not recorded everything. Acts tells us that Thomas was included in the company of the Apostles (the Eleven).

Hope that helps.

Where does Acts mention that Thomas was included?

 

[NHInsider]

Where does Acts mention that Thomas was included?

Acts 1:12-14

 

[aball1035]

We all receive the Holy Spirit. We are not all ordained. St. Paul says different offices receive different gifts (I Cor. 12:27-31, where he explicitly ranks the offices and places the Apostles first). The fact that each of us is baptized into Jesus to carry out His ministry does not mean we all have the same role, that’s the whole point of the Body of Christ analogy.

Luther and Calvin, in their efforts to undermine the apostolic church, latched on to the “priesthood of all believers” as proof that Jesus did not intend to establish an ordained priesthood. If your Protestant friend is a Baptist, Pentecostal or non-denominational believer he has probably been taught that doctrine. It flies in the face of Scriptural and historical evidence of the offices of bishop, presbyter and deacon from the earliest days of the Church (unless they’re prepared to follow the Mormons into the argument that the early Christians had already lost the Truth during the age of the Apostles).

As to Thomas’ absence, we know that Our Lord met Thomas a week after He breathed on the rest of the Apostles. John does not tell us specifically that Jesus ordained Thomas then, but John tells us that he has not recorded everything. Acts tells us that Thomas was included in the company of the Apostles (the Eleven).

Hope that helps.

Could you explain how we all recieve the Holy Spirit? And Why did Jesus breath on them and say “Recieve the Holy Spirit”? Why didn’t He say “I ordain you”?

 

[aball1035]

I’m also wondering about what makes the Holy Spirit reside in us. Why did Jesus have to actually say it to the Apostles in John 20?

 

[NotWorthy]

I’m also wondering about what makes the Holy Spirit reside in us. Why did Jesus have to actually say it to the Apostles in John 20?

He didn’t have to say it for it to happen. But he was teaching the Apostles, so He said it.

He’s teaching us that it is through the Holy Spirit, that the Apostles have the authority to forgive and retain sins.

What makes the Holy Spirit reside in us? Look to John 6, “He who eats my body and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.” You’ll notice the only other time Jesus refers to “abiding in him” is where? John 14 (or is it 15) which comes during the Last Supper, where Jesus instituted the Eucharist!

 

[aball1035]

He didn’t have to say it for it to happen. But he was teaching the Apostles, so He said it.

He’s teaching us that it is through the Holy Spirit, that the Apostles have the authority to forgive and retain sins.

What makes the Holy Spirit reside in us? Look to John 6, “He who eats my body and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.” You’ll notice the only other time Jesus refers to “abiding in him” is where? John 14 (or is it 15) which comes during the Last Supper, where Jesus instituted the Eucharist!

How does the Holy Spirit come into each man? Is it Baptism (Acts 2:38)?

 

[NotWorthy]

How does the Holy Spirit come into each man? Is it Baptism (Acts 2:38)?

It’s not a one time event, Aball.

Baptism is definitely one instance. Confirmation (when the Apostles would “lay their hands” on the Christians) is another instance. Other times, the Holy Spirit will enter into someone to urge them to do God’s Will (Phillip with the Eunuch in Acts 8?) or strengthen them in times of trouble (St. Stephen in Acts 7 before his stoning).

Cornelius’ men in Acts 10 were filled with the Holy Spirit prior to Baptism. This was an abnormal situation, for God needed to show Peter and the Church that the Gentiles needed to be allowed into the Church, outside of circumcision.

We are also filled with the Holy Spirit at the Sacrament of Penance, the Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, and when ever the Holy Spirit so desires.