Help with Abortion Argument

[bobolink]

And now this:

Well then what about ending an Eptopic Pregnancy ?

According to you it’s killing a child but it has to be done to save the mother’s life and any chance she may have to have to further pregnancies and children ?

They are trying to make us look inconsistent:

The Tribunal of the Holy Office ruled on 1894-MAY-28 and 1889-AUG-19 that:

"It cannot be safely taught in Catholic schools that it is lawful to perform...any surgical operation which is directly destructive of the life of the fetus or the mother."

This would seem to include operations needed to save the life of the woman.

( religioustolerance.org/abo_now_c.htm )

Does the RCC allow medical interventions to save the life of mother even if it kills the unborn? What is the history of this thinking/teaching? The following article is relevant here - these are the sources the pro-aborts are using:
religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c1.htm

 

[wanner47]

bobolink –

FWIW, my husband and I had a funeral for the baby we lost to miscarriage at 12 weeks. So it is done, even if it’s not the norm.

As to your most recent post, that’s where the principle of double effect comes into play.

 

[bobolink]

Thanks but I need to refute this - I have a feeling this statemnt is untrue or out of context:

Circa 380 CE: The Apostolic Constitutions allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy.

Allow?

 

[wanner47]

Thanks but I need to refute this - I have a feeling this statemnt is untrue or out of context:

Allow?

Have they cited a source for this claim?

 

[bobolink]

Thanks but I need to refute this - I have a feeling this statemnt is untrue or out of context:

Allow?

I believe that statement from the apostolic constitutions I posted above is falsified - I can find it on only one site (religioustolerance.org), and the exact opposite statement is found on CA tract on abortion and other sources too I imagine:

catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp

Compare two statements, supposedly from the same document:

Circa 380 CE: The Apostolic Constitutions allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy.

Vs.

"Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . f it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" (Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 [A.D. 400]).

Hmmm…

Anyone anything to add, I would welcome your comments.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Someone asked me a good question and I am stumped:

How can I answer this? Please help me!

EDIT: I had a look on Catholic Answers, found some useful stuff - most of it was pretty obvious, but if anyone wants to say anything else, I would welcome it!

One, people are buried without funerals. It happens all the time, and it too is a sad commentary on society. There is a reason why “burying the dead” is a corporate work of mercy: in the ancient world it wasn’t an assumption. In many areas, it still isn’t. Body were/are dumped just out of the way. The pagan commented on the fact that the Christians would give the unclaimed bodies some human dignity with a proper burial.

I’ve had the misfortune of knowing many who miscarried in the early term, and they morned the death. And yes, many have services.

One of my past priests had a job working in a cementary. They used to get the aborted fetuses which he was to load into the cremantorium. He prayed over each one.

Which brings up the fact that the pro-death people have been moving for laws aimed at preventing the prolife people getting their hands on the “products” of the abortuariums. It came up because some were going through the garbage, retrieving them, and giving them a proper burial.

I’d bring up that some given elaborate funerals for their pets, and ask does that make them human, but from experience they see no illogic.

One of the priests on EWTN noted that he was watching a “animal rights” parade. One of the spectators said “what about babies?” Someone in the parade picked up her poodle and said “this is my baby,” to which the priest interjected “well, then I should be much interested in seeing the father.”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I believe that statement from the apostolic constitutions I posted above is falsified - I can find it on only one site (religioustolerance.org), and the exact opposite statement is found on CA tract on abortion and other sources too I imagine:

catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp

Compare two statements, supposedly from the same document:

Vs.

Hmmm…

Anyone anything to add, I would welcome your comments.

pro-death falsifying and lying. Who could have known?

There are several references to abortion in the apostolic Fathers (50-150), always in the context of “don’t do it.”

 

[bobolink]

This is what one of the pro-death squad just said in reply to my post:

So all human life is sacred, unless they are a witch…

I replied tongue-in-cheek:

Now you’re just being really, really silly.

… And btw most witchburning was done by Protestants, not Catholics. We burned a few heretics instead.

But in all seriousness, you are simply throwing around a lot of red herrings to distract from the issue at hand: the slaughter of the innocents: the unborn in the womb.

I honestly don’t think he even read my post:
boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57388473&postcount=138

 

[Isa_Almisry]

This is what one of the pro-death squad just said in reply to my post:

I replied tongue-in-cheek:

I honestly don’t think he even read my post:
boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57388473&postcount=138

Btw. the great witch scares (and burnings) happened not in the Middle,Dark Ages, but AFTER the renaissance/enlightenment.

During the Early Middle Ages, the Church did not conduct witch trials. Canon law, in Canon Episcopi, followed the views of the church father Augustine of Hippo (AD 400) that belief in the existence of witchcraft was heresy, since according to Augustine “a heretic is one who either devises or follows false and new opinions, for the sake of some temporal profit”.The Council of Paderborn in 785 explicitly outlawed the very belief in witches, and Charlemagne later confirmed the law. The first medieval trials against witches date to the 13th century with the institution of the Inquisition, but they were a side issue, as the Church was concentrating on the persecution of heresy, and witchcraft, alleged or real, was treated as any other sort of heresy.

There were still secular laws against witchcraft, such as that promulgated by King Athelstan (924-999)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Middle_Ages

although, it’s wikipedia, this information is accurate. Something it leaves out was the “rational” Romans outlawed witchcraft and divination severely.

 

[bobolink]

Is it true therefore to say that Protestants burned more witches than Catholics?

(This is entirely off-topic!)

 

[Feste_1242]

I just presented the refutation of the Pelosi scandal using this: catholidoxy.blogspot.com/2008/08/pelosi-on-mtp-catholic-tradition-vague.html , but now this has been given to me on the thread:

religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm

How to refute the second article, especially the timeline at the end?

This is troubling if true:

Circa 380 CE: The Apostolic Constitutions allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape and contained a soul.

Their claim is completely untrue; they simply got it from an unreliable source. Tell them that if they want to know about Catholic teaching, they should try asking Catholics.

 

[Spirithound]

Circa 380 CE: The Apostolic Constitutions allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape and contained a soul.

Eptopic Pregnancy ?

“It cannot be safely taught in Catholic schools that it is lawful to perform…any surgical operation which is directly destructive of the life of the fetus or the mother.”

This would seem to include operations needed to save the life of the woman.

Does the RCC allow medical interventions to save the life of mother even if it kills the unborn? What is the history of this thinking/teaching?

If the quote from the Apostolic Constitution is accurate, then it still does not allow abortion, since we know that the baby has a soul from the moment of conception. It also has the “form” of a human, having human DNA different from his or her parents.

An ectopic pregnancy may be treated by removing the affected fallopian tube, as long as the intent of those involved parties is not to kill the baby. The intent must be only to remove a part of the body which is functioning dangerously. Consider that a woman who has one ectopic pregnancy is 15% likely to have another ectopic pregnancy. This shows that the fallopian tube is not functioning properly.

So always consider the primary intent of the procedure.

 

[bobolink]

If the quote from the Apostolic Constitution is accurate, then it still does not allow abortion, since we know that the baby has a soul from the moment of conception. It also has the “form” of a human, having human DNA different from his or her parents.

I think the quote was false. It wasn’t even a quote, it was an unsourced opinion on the Apostolic Constitutions as far as I can see now!