Help with an Abortion Argument

[rstegeman]

I need your help in arguing a point. I recently had a discussion on abortion with a friend (who is against abortion in most circumstances). In playing the devil’s advocate, he asked me if the soul of a baby goes to Heaven upon their death? I replied in the affirmative, to which his response was that, how is abortion such a bad thing if those souls are going to Heaven and avoiding all of the evils and temptations of this world?

I could only muster a response of something to the effect of that we have no right to play God and decide what’s best for those babies. This response wasn’t satisfying to me. There is an argument much more significant somewhere in me, but I just can’t seem to formulate it. So, I’m hoping someone here can help me out with this.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Go on the offensive. If he views abortion as immoral in most circumstances, ask him how he justifies murder in others.

 

[1ke]

In playing the devil’s advocate, he asked me if the soul of a baby goes to Heaven upon their death? I replied in the affirmative,

That is not in line with Church teaching. The Church teaches we do not know the fate of the unbaptized. We can only hope for them. We do not know with certainty that they are admitted to Heaven.

to which his response was that, how is abortion such a bad thing if those souls are going to Heaven and avoiding all of the evils and temptations of this world?

Well then, let’s just kill all the newborn babies, kids who are 2 years old, etc. and “spare” them the cruelty of growing up.

The answer is simple: It is always wrong to kill babies and children and any other innocent person.

I could only muster a response of something to the effect of that we have no right to play God and decide what’s best for those babies. This response wasn’t satisfying to me. There is an argument much more significant somewhere in me, but I just can’t seem to formulate it. So, I’m hoping someone here can help me out with this.

I don’t think your response was unsatisfying. It is true. Every child has a right to life given by God.

 

[cfrancis]

By your friend’s logic, as someone pointed out, what’s so bad about killing children who have been baptized but have not reached the age of acountability?
By your friend’s logic, what’s wrong with killing Catholics of any age who emerge from the confessional?

But the underlying foundation for your friend’s argument is this: one can do evil to do good.

This leads us to both relativism and utilitarianism.

 

[gookykookypig]

Say that though the baby’s soul do go upward to heaven with abortion, God is somewhat disappointed for He with all His errands spent a time “weaving” (Psalm 139:13), “familiarizing” (Jeremiah 1:5) blessing (Genesis 49:25) the baby in the womb .By these efforts of God the baby was “fearfully and wonderfully made” (Psalms 139:14). In other words, He beforehand equipped the baby to adapt life.

Then ask your friend, in which case will God be happier,** to let the baby live according to His designs** or by the use of abortion **deliver the baby back to the hands of Him who worked out for the preparation of the baby’s life?
**

Though I am happy that my son is back from the air force, I’ll not be that happy if my son just took off hours ago for his duty but ran back home (resigning the air force) to be with me. I might love my son, but I’m disappointed that he didn’t made it to his true destination in life with all the pursuits.

 

[rstegeman]

By your friend’s logic, what’s wrong with killing Catholics of any age who emerge from the confessional?

If I were to be killed, that would be the best time, I suppose…provided I was able to complete my penance!! All joking aside, I had thought that same thing while typing my original question.

 

[chris_molter]

Even IF the child’s soul goes to heaven, the soul of the mother, the abortionist and others who participate in the murder have now committed a mortal sin.

So, yeah. Stupid idea.

 

[rstegeman]

Say that though the baby’s soul do go upward to heaven on abortion, God is somewhat disappointed for He with all His errands spent a time “weaving” (Psalm 139:13), “familiarizing” (Jeremiah 1:5) blessing (Genesis 49:25) the baby in the womb .By these efforts of God the baby was “fearfully and wonderfully made” (Psalms 139:14). In other words, He beforehand equipped the baby to adapt life.

Then ask your friend, in which case will God be happier,** to let the baby live according to His designs** or by the use of abortion **deliver the baby back to the hands of Him who worked out for the preparation of the baby’s life?
**

Though I am happy that my son is back from the air force, I’ll not be that happy if my son just took off hours ago for his duty but ran back home (resigning the air force) to be with me. I might love my son, but I’m disappointed that he didn’t made it to his true destination in life with all the pursuits.

I think this is more of what I was looking for. Thank you.

 

[dmelosi]

I need your help in arguing a point. I recently had a discussion on abortion with a friend (who is against abortion in most circumstances). In playing the devil’s advocate, he asked me if the soul of a baby goes to Heaven upon their death? I replied in the affirmative, to which his response was that, how is abortion such a bad thing if those souls are going to Heaven and avoiding all of the evils and temptations of this world?

I could only muster a response of something to the effect of that we have no right to play God and decide what’s best for those babies. This response wasn’t satisfying to me. There is an argument much more significant somewhere in me, but I just can’t seem to formulate it. So, I’m hoping someone here can help me out with this.

Ask him how he thinks this is different than some of the mercy killings that some extreme Muslims do when their daughters start to go astray?

Does that mean it is ok to kill a saint because they will go to heaven? Is it ok to kill a mentally challenged person who may not know what a sin is/therefore does not sin?

Where does the killing of human beings stop?

Your response is the best one though. How does she argue away the commandment “Thou shalt no kill”

Our church teaches us that human life starts at protection.

 

[Philthy]

I need your help in arguing a point. I recently had a discussion on abortion with a friend (who is against abortion in most circumstances). In playing the devil’s advocate, he asked me if the soul of a baby goes to Heaven upon their death? I replied in the affirmative, to which his response was that, how is abortion such a bad thing if those souls are going to Heaven and avoiding all of the evils and temptations of this world?

Two things - first off, we dont know exactly what happens to the unborn when they are murdered, so your response should have “We dont know”
Secondly, even if we did know what happened, God has commanded that we not murder. In choosing to murder an unborn in direct contradiction to God’s command, we are making ourselves out as God. We have to trust that when God chooses to create a human soul that He does so for reasons we cant understand completely. If God is our Lord, who are we to claim that we know He made a mistake in bringing a life into existence and that that life’s purpose is now complete?

 

[cranster]

It is a grave, grave sin to murder! The right to give and take life belongs to God alone! God does not give an unborn baby life so that it’s mother can take it… under any circumstance. It is in keeping with the spirit of modernism that people set themselves up to be their own god and think they have the right to murder because it’s licensed by the supreme court.

Ask your friend if he see’s abortion as sparing a child the evils and temptations of this world and sending it directly to Heaven, then why shouldn’t we spare him further exposure to evil and temptation and send him directly to Heaven?
What’s the difference between the unborn and him, they are both equally human. They both have the same right to life. Why is he so special?

We have to take away the sanitization of the reality of abortion by stripping the verbal engineering used in calling it “choice” It’s MURDER! period.

 

[narrowpath]

If he is catholic, ask him whether he would like you to kill him on his way out of the confessional, as he should be cleansed of sin and will go to heaven

 

[rstegeman]

Thank you one and all for the replies. When we originally had this discussion, it was very long and drawn out. By the time he brought this argument up, I just got flustered and I think it just scrambled my brains. For the life of me, I could not formulate a good response to it at the time. Don’t get me wrong, he wasn’t convincing me his argument was right. Oh, I knew it was wrong but I was just at a loss for the right words.

Thanks to all once again.

 

[RosaryFan]

I need your help in arguing a point. I recently had a discussion on abortion with a friend (who is against abortion in most circumstances). In playing the devil’s advocate, he asked me if the soul of a baby goes to Heaven upon their death? I replied in the affirmative, to which his response was that, how is abortion such a bad thing if those souls are going to Heaven and avoiding all of the evils and temptations of this world?

I could only muster a response of something to the effect of that we have no right to play God and decide what’s best for those babies. This response wasn’t satisfying to me. There is an argument much more significant somewhere in me, but I just can’t seem to formulate it. So, I’m hoping someone here can help me out with this.

First of all, we can only hope they’re in heaven. We trust in God’s mercy and goodness. However, we also must remember that they are not baptized and we really don’t know if they are going to heaven. Personally, I consider them martyrs, but what do I know??

Second of all, just because a person appears to be bound for heaven, does that give us the right to kill them because they are “better off”?? Certainly not because it is the heaven bound people who do God’s work on earth most diligently. God will take them in His own time. God alone is the author of life and death (which is why euthanasia, suicide, etc. are all immoral).

Third, murder is a mortal sin. Period. “Thou shall not kill”.

 

[mdcpensive1]

1ke and others have the correct understanding of the situation as far as the theology goes. One point I would like to bring up is that God does not think it is a good thing to bring a good from a mortal act. This is not logical and therefore not of God.

A second point, is that God breathed life into the child and put a soul into the person in order for the person to glorify God. It is just not right to abrogate this process that is only of God’s choosing. It is up to God to choose when the person is to return to Him and how the person lives a life in the persuit of holiness. Each person has a chance to grow in Grace and Love to attain the reward or punishment deserving at judgement from the use of lthe gifts given. We sin by not allowing a person to fullfill the Lord’s destiny that Grace calls them to. This frustrates God’s plan which again is not of God.

mdcpensive1