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franc1sc0
Guest
Need help refuting a buddy who is kind of anti Catholic. He is ex Catholic.
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The_Scott
Guest
A great place to start is here: scripturecatholic.com/
There’s plenty of Biblical passages for every Catholic dogma, doctrine, and discipline.
There’s plenty of Biblical passages for every Catholic dogma, doctrine, and discipline.
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KP3243
Guest
The prayer To Mary which reads we fly to your patronage… Has been dated at 250 AD
We dont pray to spiritually dead people we because your soul never dies. Saints in heaven are the Church Triumphant and are more alive then we are. The Old testament says Not to pray to dead people but we live after Jesus released the souls In limbo so that doesn’t apply to us because we know who saints are. Revelation 8:4 says prayers of the saints which is where Catholics get that from. You can really throw your friend for a loop by telling him that you also attend the Supper of the Lamb at Mass every week that is mentioned in Revelation. ask him if he ever wondered why Jesus is referred to as the lamb 22 times a nd if he knew we sing the Holy holy holy that Revelation talks about as well. The easiest way to get someone off your case is to bring them to Jesus. The Eucharist is usually what gets most people to convert. If he says the Eucharist is symbolic, ask why did all the disciples leave Jesus in John 6 and why Saint Paul uses such strong language about profaining the body and blood of Christ if you receive if unworthy or if you are in a state of mortal sin.
We dont pray to spiritually dead people we because your soul never dies. Saints in heaven are the Church Triumphant and are more alive then we are. The Old testament says Not to pray to dead people but we live after Jesus released the souls In limbo so that doesn’t apply to us because we know who saints are. Revelation 8:4 says prayers of the saints which is where Catholics get that from. You can really throw your friend for a loop by telling him that you also attend the Supper of the Lamb at Mass every week that is mentioned in Revelation. ask him if he ever wondered why Jesus is referred to as the lamb 22 times a nd if he knew we sing the Holy holy holy that Revelation talks about as well. The easiest way to get someone off your case is to bring them to Jesus. The Eucharist is usually what gets most people to convert. If he says the Eucharist is symbolic, ask why did all the disciples leave Jesus in John 6 and why Saint Paul uses such strong language about profaining the body and blood of Christ if you receive if unworthy or if you are in a state of mortal sin.
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
What the objection presupposes is that any and all beliefs and practices must be found directly in the Bible to be true. You have to answer that falsehood first before you can answer the objection.
No, he didn’t. Look at the gospels and who was with Jesus at the cross:
Mattew 27:[55] There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him;
[56] among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb’edee.
Mark 15:[40] There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo’me,
John 19:[25] But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.
Matthew has: Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Mark has: Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and Joses, and Salo’me.
John has: Mary(Jesus’ mother), His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
We can eliminate the common Mary(s) that we know of-Mary, the mother of Jesus & Mary Magdalene
Once you eliminate them you have:
Matthew: Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee
Mark: Mary the mother of James the younger and Joses, and Salo’me
John: His mother’s sister, and Mary the wife of Clopas
Since in the Greek the difference between Joseph and Joses is only one letter, its a safe bet that the mother of James and Joseph/Joses is Mary, who is the wife of Clopas.
So all that is left is Salo’me, who is the mother of the sons of Zebedee, who is the sister of Mary, the Lord’s mother. Therefore James and John are COUSINS of Jesus-not brothers.
Again, these are related. We pray in Jesus’ name, you know this well. His real objection has to do with the communion of the Saints. Those who die “in Christ” are alive with Him. They offer prayers to God in the heavenly worship John witnesses in the book of Revelation. Jesus IS the one mediator, but Jesus shares his work of mediation with His brothers and sisters so that we “imitate the works of our heavenly Father.” His mediatorship is not solitary.
Purgatory isn’t about judgement. Sins aren’t forgiven in purgatory. His objection is based on a flawed understanding of what purgatory is.
The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth”(1 Tim 3:15), the Church is the fulness of Him who fills all in all."(Eph 1:22-23).
The Bible presupposes the Church and depends on the Church for its authentication.
What’s the problem? Is he saying that God couldn’t have created her this way?
“Work out your salvation in fear and trembling…”(Phil 2;12)
This is not even an argument. This is a rationalization. It is fallacious to reject Catholic Christianity as being “true” or “false” based on the bad acts of believers.
Then why was St. Augustine teaching this in the 5th century? The objection is based on false information.
He didn’t find the truth, he found evangelical fundamentalism. And he didn’t “discover” it, someone fed it to him. And because to him these things are “new” to him then he is (falsely) thinking that they are true when they are not.
There is a reason why evangelical fundamentalism led me to atheism.
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bzkoss236
Guest
Another great resource is the book “The Essential Catholic Survival Guide” which is a collection of Catholic Answers tracts on various subjects. These same tracts can be found on the Catholic Answers website. Let me put some of the relevant ones here:
Scripture and Tradition
“What’s Your Authority?”
Praying to the Saints
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
“Brethren of the Lord”
Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Purgatory
Scripture and Tradition
“What’s Your Authority?”
Praying to the Saints
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
“Brethren of the Lord”
Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Purgatory
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Qwestions
Guest
I think that you should seriously consider how close you want this friend to be to you. If he had been a practicing Catholic, he would have had ample opportunity to ferret out the answers to every one of the issues listed. Instead, he has relied upon people who clearly don’t know the faith to influence him by their wrong ideas. To top it off, he was LOOKING (see his note at the bottom of his list) for information to denounce the Church–it took him several years but he was successful! Yet he says the Church left him?
If he’s asked you for answers, that’s a start, but if you’re approaching this on your own, I think you’re headed for disappointment. How honorable are his intentions? Is he truly wanting answers? Or is he wanting an opportunity to influence you? Protect your own soul.
People like this often are bitter because they prefer to stay in a situation that the Church teaches will prevent any possibility of their gaining admittance into Heaven when they die. In other words, their lifestyle includes behaviors that will lead them to hell, rather than to heaven. Their bitterness toward the Catholic faith should be directed to themselves, but if they’re too weak to make their lifestyle choices to be in accordance with the Church, it is easier to blame the church than to accept responsibility for their wrongdoing, confess their sins, perform their penances, make amends, and embark upon a new path. That’s certainly understandable, because we’re human, but it’s not soul-saving.
I recently read his original post here on CAF. His note at the bottom indicates that you’re probably in for a lot of grief and possibly weakening of your own faith. Stir this pot with a log-handled spoon, lest you get burned. Good luck to you, whatever you decide.
If he’s asked you for answers, that’s a start, but if you’re approaching this on your own, I think you’re headed for disappointment. How honorable are his intentions? Is he truly wanting answers? Or is he wanting an opportunity to influence you? Protect your own soul.
People like this often are bitter because they prefer to stay in a situation that the Church teaches will prevent any possibility of their gaining admittance into Heaven when they die. In other words, their lifestyle includes behaviors that will lead them to hell, rather than to heaven. Their bitterness toward the Catholic faith should be directed to themselves, but if they’re too weak to make their lifestyle choices to be in accordance with the Church, it is easier to blame the church than to accept responsibility for their wrongdoing, confess their sins, perform their penances, make amends, and embark upon a new path. That’s certainly understandable, because we’re human, but it’s not soul-saving.
I recently read his original post here on CAF. His note at the bottom indicates that you’re probably in for a lot of grief and possibly weakening of your own faith. Stir this pot with a log-handled spoon, lest you get burned. Good luck to you, whatever you decide.
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Mystophilus
Guest
Is logic really what you need here? Someone who is ex-Catholic and anti-Catholic is likely to be working on the basis of emotion more than reason. As such, if you really want to address his concerns, you need to get to the emotional cause of the whole attitude (which is tricky).
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franc1sc0
Guest
Yea you guys are right. I have put evidence in front of him and he is just slinging the typical anti Catholic rhetoric. He just wants to put down the Church and he says Sola Scriptura is the only way. I am just going to look for an exit to the conversation.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Your friend is obviously an adherant to Sola Scriptura. Seeing as he stated that nothing should be added to the Gospels, challenge him to show where the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura. Feel free to post his responses on CAF (possibly in a separate thread to give this topic the full attention it deserves). At this point I’ve heard just about every biblical defense of Sola Scriptura imaginable and none of them work (I have extensively debated the issue in these forums, including this one that got shut down after it exceeded the 1000-post limit).
I have heard others make the claim, “I didn’t leave the Catholic Church; the Catholic Church left me.” That’s a “cop-out”. I think people should “call a spade a spade” and admit the reality of a situation. In other words, people are the ones who leave the Catholic Church; the Catholic Church never left anyone. What inevitably happens is that certain people believe that the Church does not live up to their expectations and decide to become non-practicing Catholics or convert to another denomination or religion. But the question remains as to why they think that their expectations suddenly become the “litmus test” for what is and is not the authentic Church established by God.
In terms of the recent sex scandal in the Catholic Church, this only proves that the Body of Christ is composed of sinners. This is something that the Church has never denied. As a matter-of-fact, of the seven sacraments three directly address the problem of sin within the community (i.e., Baptism, Reconciliation & Anointing of the Sick). When the sex scandal broke out in the news, a lot of people in the media rightly criticized these crimes and how they were handled by the Church. However, there was very little criticism launched by official representatives of Protestant denominations or Orthodox Churches. The reason is simple: they knew that they had the same problem and did not want to sound like hypocrites.
I always remind people that there are *one billion *Catholics in the world, which means that a sixth of the entire population of the planet is Catholic. Whenever you get a billion people together, you’re going to find an awful lot of sinners, even horrific ones and criminal ones.
If your friend thinks that an authentic Church is one whose members are all perfect saints then good luck to him in finding such a place this side of heaven.
I have heard others make the claim, “I didn’t leave the Catholic Church; the Catholic Church left me.” That’s a “cop-out”. I think people should “call a spade a spade” and admit the reality of a situation. In other words, people are the ones who leave the Catholic Church; the Catholic Church never left anyone. What inevitably happens is that certain people believe that the Church does not live up to their expectations and decide to become non-practicing Catholics or convert to another denomination or religion. But the question remains as to why they think that their expectations suddenly become the “litmus test” for what is and is not the authentic Church established by God.
In terms of the recent sex scandal in the Catholic Church, this only proves that the Body of Christ is composed of sinners. This is something that the Church has never denied. As a matter-of-fact, of the seven sacraments three directly address the problem of sin within the community (i.e., Baptism, Reconciliation & Anointing of the Sick). When the sex scandal broke out in the news, a lot of people in the media rightly criticized these crimes and how they were handled by the Church. However, there was very little criticism launched by official representatives of Protestant denominations or Orthodox Churches. The reason is simple: they knew that they had the same problem and did not want to sound like hypocrites.
I always remind people that there are *one billion *Catholics in the world, which means that a sixth of the entire population of the planet is Catholic. Whenever you get a billion people together, you’re going to find an awful lot of sinners, even horrific ones and criminal ones.
If your friend thinks that an authentic Church is one whose members are all perfect saints then good luck to him in finding such a place this side of heaven.
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
My advice is to discuss ONE of the issues at a time. Don’t let him try to overwhelm you with a long list of issues. Take one at a time and discuss it thoroughly. That way, you can also spend more time researching each one before giving him the best possible answer.
Here’s a couple great articles by Jimmy Akin that have helped me a lot, in reference to Purgatory and the Deuterocanonical books (which he will probably refer to as “Apocrypha”).
ewtn.com/library/answers/deuteros.htm
ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm
Here’s a couple great articles by Jimmy Akin that have helped me a lot, in reference to Purgatory and the Deuterocanonical books (which he will probably refer to as “Apocrypha”).
ewtn.com/library/answers/deuteros.htm
ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm
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