Help with answering a contention against the Church's position on human life

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(What class prompted the question?)
Ethical Choices, a philosophy class.

The clearest answer I could discern from the myriad response is that the situation the professor described is a situation where the embryo is already dead, long before its alleged potential expulsion. I believe it was Brendan who described this so well, calling it natural death, prior to the expulsion…just as regrettable as any miscarriage, and just as infrequent.
 
You are again confused over medical stuff. Let me try to explain better, a zygote which had a failed implantion is death. Zygote comes First and implantation after. IVF creates a cigote that gets frozen, it comes first. That zygot has a period of.life from 6 to 10 days naturally to.implant. if implantion fails, dies. With IVF they freeze it right away and then the doctors do the implantation by flushing them into the uterus and if they don’t implant they also die and no they can’t be “put back.”

IVF is actually quite a bad example as implantation rates in IVF are very low. That is why when they do IVF they always create multiple ones and flush as many as they can so at least one can implant successfully, most of the created zygots are going to fail implantation and die, so there is no medical possibility for what you are suggesting
I hear you claiming that a zygote which fails to implant is dead. But who says so? I see no evidence that it is dead, other than your repeated assertions that it is so. One could just as easily say that a starving child is already dead. But give that child something to eat and suddenly he is not dead after all. Similarly, how does anyone know that if an expelled zygote were suddenly put in contact with a receptive uterine lining that it would not also recover and develop? Sure, no one has done it yet. But does that mean it is impossible?
 
One of my liberal professors made a worrisome accusation against the Catholic Church’s position on life in the womb and pregnancy. He contended that since the Church teaches that life begins at conception, before the being attaches itself to the wall of the uterus, those beings that do not attach themselves to the wall of the uterus are often literally flushed down the toilet. He was arguing against the idea of a soul being an actual thing, by alluding to how frequently souls are “flushed down the toilet.” How should I go about refuting his contention?

Thanks for reading,
He seems to be conflating two uses of the word soul. From the point of view of the Church, a soul is a part of us that is not material. The soul is the part from which the body is separated at death.

However, in everyday language, not so much now as some time ago, people used the word soul to refer to a person; hence, 14 souls were lost when the ship wrecked. This is an example of a figure of speech called synecdoche, in which a part of something is used to refer to the whole, ie, if I say a rancher has 100 head, it means he has 100 cows.

So I think you can see how the prof confused the two uses of the word soul in order to make his statement.
 
I hear you claiming that a zygote which fails to implant is dead. But who says so? I see no evidence that it is dead, other than your repeated assertions that it is so. One could just as easily say that a starving child is already dead. But give that child something to eat and suddenly he is not dead after all. Similarly, how does anyone know that if an expelled zygote were suddenly put in contact with a receptive uterine lining that it would not also recover and develop? Sure, no one has done it yet. But does that mean it is impossible?
How do you know, well that is basic science. Something is alive when breaths, when cells reproduce, when eats and when is capable to continue sustaining on its own. Something is dead when it doesn’t breath, when cells have stopped reproducing, and when the decomposition process starts. Yes we know precisely because thanks to technology and things like IVF science does know when they are dead. If they were alive then frozen embryos and zygotes would be able to continue to grow in the laboratory until full term (and believe that already has been attempted not only for IVF but on research as to topic pregnancies) and there wouldn’t be a need to freeze them. Think about it, why do you think they have to be kept frozen. After a miscarriage the zygote starts decomposition which is a positive sign of death, again why do you think it gets expeled as blood?
 
How do you know, well that is basic science. Something is alive when breaths, when cells reproduce, when eats and when is capable to continue sustaining on its own.
This is not a sufficient definition because we believe that a fertilized egg is alive and is a human life from the moment of conception. And a fertilized egg does not breath. Neither is it capable of continuing in a self-sustaining manner without the nurturing environment of the womb. But whatever definition you propose that covers a fertilized egg inside the womb, it would also cover a fertilized egg that is briefly located outside the womb. Nothing is going to change that fast in the cells which would force us to declare them dead the instant they fall out of the mother’s body.
If they were alive then frozen embryos and zygotes would be able to continue to grow in the laboratory until full term (and believe that already has been attempted not only for IVF but on research as to topic pregnancies) and there wouldn’t be a need to freeze them.
Are you claiming that frozen IVF zygotes are not alive, but that they may come back to life if successfully implanted? I really don’t care what a frozen zygote is called (dead or alive) so long as the moral standing of that zygote is clear. Is there a moral obligation to treat that frozen zygote with the same respect due to all human beings? Or can we dispose of them the same as we dispose of a dead body - with respect, but not the same respect we give to the living? It seems to me that the moral obligation is in some way tied to the potential for that zygote to develop into what is obviously recognized as life. If there is no possibility of recognizeable life, then the thing is dead. Otherwise we must treat it as alive, even if it is currently frozen, or if it is briefly located outside of a sufficiently nurturing environment.
 
This is not a sufficient definition because we believe that a fertilized egg is alive and is a human life from the moment of conception. And a fertilized egg does not breath. Neither is it capable of continuing in a self-sustaining manner without the nurturing environment of the womb. But whatever definition you propose that covers a fertilized egg inside the womb, it would also cover a fertilized egg that is briefly located outside the womb. Nothing is going to change that fast in the cells which would force us to declare them dead the instant they fall out of the mother’s body.

Are you claiming that frozen IVF zygotes are not alive, but that they may come back to life if successfully implanted? I really don’t care what a frozen zygote is called (dead or alive) so long as the moral standing of that zygote is clear. Is there a moral obligation to treat that frozen zygote with the same respect due to all human beings? Or can we dispose of them the same as we dispose of a dead body - with respect, but not the same respect we give to the living? It seems to me that the moral obligation is in some way tied to the potential for that zygote to develop into what is obviously recognized as life. If there is no possibility of recognizeable life, then the thing is dead. Otherwise we must treat it as alive, even if it is currently frozen, or if it is briefly located outside of a sufficiently nurturing environment.
I am sorry but you have a massive lack of understanding with regard to basic science and is useless to explain to you if you don’t know the basics of cells and organisms. Re read basic biology and maybe an embriology book may help you.
 
I am sorry but you have a massive lack of understanding with regard to basic science and is useless to explain to you if you don’t know the basics of cells and organisms. Re read basic biology and maybe an embriology book may help you.
Or could it be that you are uncomfortable with the moral consequences of recognizing the possibility that an expelled zygote could be still alive? Personal attacks on my intelligence does not help.
 
Or could it be that you are uncomfortable with the moral consequences of recognizing the possibility that an expelled zygote could be still alive? Personal attacks on my intelligence does not help.
Leaf, the female body does not expel living fertilized eggs, zygote, as you are implying. The body would go through its normal process and after the period of time that the zygote can survive unattached it will die naturally then be expelled as through the regular cycle albeit somewhat late.

You are arguing a point which has no merit and no meaning to this thread and I might add, no apparent purpose but for arguments sake. Please ask yourself, how is continuing this going to help the original poster?
 
The statement that 'Life begins at Conception" is not a scientific statement. As you noted, the definition of the word conception is a scientific one, but it does not follow that the statement itself is a scientific one.

The term ‘Life’ is a metaphysical property, not a scientific one, so the statement itself takes on the character of a metaphysical statement.

The Church knows that life is a function of the soul, there physical matter is animated by life, we have certitude that a soul is present. Since science does not, and cannot address the metaphysical reality of the soul, any statement on the nature of Life must, by definition, be a metaphysical one, not a scientific one.

So yes, as Dcn Japhy noted, the Church DOES claim that life begins at conception, as we know that the product of conception is a living entity that carries the nature of it’s parents.
To avoid metaphysical arguments, we can simply say that a new and distinct individual of the human species has it’s beginning at conception. That is a biologically true statement, not a metaphysical statement. A new human being begins at conception.
 
The CCC disagrees with the premise that the Church does not teach on this; She does.

II. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE”
362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that “then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”
Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

.
That’s all I need to know right there.
When does infusion take place? How should I know? How does anyone know with certainty?
If we don’t know something for sure, who should we trust for the answer?
 
The CCC disagrees with the premise that the Church does not teach on this; She does.

II. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE”
362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person. But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:
Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body; i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. “Spirit” signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God…
What do these sections of the CCC say about identical twins? At what point did their separate and distinct souls become joined with the body? Was it at conception when there was only one cell?
 
What do these sections of the CCC say about identical twins? At what point did their separate and distinct souls become joined with the body? Was it at conception when there was only one cell?
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.” Do you think that God did not know the fertilized egg would spontaneously on its own, split? I think not. When the one became two at that time the one soul became two. Notice the CCC says that the human bodily formation and the immortal soul were formed simultaneously; therefore when the one becomes two, one soul becomes two.

I try my best not to complicate things. This is what the CCC reads about one, so it must be what it means about one slitting into two. That is my interpretation.
 
Ethical Choices, a philosophy class.

The clearest answer I could discern from the myriad response is that the situation the professor described is a situation where the embryo is already dead, long before its alleged potential expulsion. I believe it was Brendan who described this so well, calling it natural death, prior to the expulsion…just as regrettable as any miscarriage, and just as infrequent.
I agree that this is a natural death which occurs prior to expulsion but just a small point - you said ‘just as regrettable as any miscarriage, and just as infrequent’. Obviously yes, the failure of a fertilised egg to implant is as regrettable as any miscarriage. It is a natural event but you seem to be suggesting that it’s an infrequent event. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you?

This link from Medline (nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm) says:

“Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%. Most miscarriages occur during the first 7 weeks of pregnancy.”

Failure of the fertilised egg to implant cannot be considered an infrequent event. A 15-20% miscarriage rate in women who know they are pregnant is not infrequent either. It doesn’t make any difference to Church teaching, but the fact is that natural pregnancy loss in the early weeks is not an infrequent event.
 
One of my liberal professors made a worrisome accusation against the Catholic Church’s position on life in the womb and pregnancy. He contended that since the Church teaches that life begins at conception, before the being attaches itself to the wall of the uterus, those beings that do not attach themselves to the wall of the uterus are often literally flushed down the toilet. He was arguing against the idea of a soul being an actual thing, by alluding to how frequently souls are “flushed down the toilet.” How should I go about refuting his contention?

Thanks for reading,
I’m assuming, which I probably shouldn’t do, that your professor is an atheist? If that is the case then my 2 cents will not be enough to convince him that he is in error. For the Word of God confirms that our Lord our God knew us before we were even knit in our mother’s womb.

Psalm 139:13-18

For it was you who formed my inward parts;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
that I know very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes beheld my unformed substance.
In your book were written
all the days that were formed for me,
when none of them as yet existed.

How weighty to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
I try to count them—they are more than the sand;
I come to the end—I am still with you.
 
I’m assuming, which I probably shouldn’t do, that your professor is an atheist? If that is the case then my 2 cents will not be enough to convince him that he is in error. For the Word of God confirms that our Lord our God knew us before we were even knit in our mother’s womb.

Psalm 139:13-18

For it was you who formed my inward parts;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
that I know very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes beheld my unformed substance.
In your book were written
all the days that were formed for me,
when none of them as yet existed.

How weighty to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
I try to count them—they are more than the sand;
I come to the end—I am still with you.
Good stuff.
What is boils down to is that God wills into existence every human being and knows them from all eternity to all eternity. All the rest is mental gymnastics.
If God wills us into existence and sees us as special in his eyes, each of us with unique human dignity, then who are we to thwart that will and treat human life as disposable?
Pride is the root of all sin.
 
One of my liberal professors made a worrisome accusation against the Catholic Church’s position on life in the womb and pregnancy. He contended that since the Church teaches that life begins at conception, before the being attaches itself to the wall of the uterus, those beings that do not attach themselves to the wall of the uterus are often literally flushed down the toilet. He was arguing against the idea of a soul being an actual thing, by alluding to how frequently souls are “flushed down the toilet.” How should I go about refuting his contention?

Thanks for reading,
Your professor’s argument is an old and tired one, not to mention an ignorant one, and only meant to make Catholics feel confused and guilty. Guilty, because it makes it sound like we approve of flushing babies down the toilet. The hope is that such guilt will lead us to give up our belief that life ends at conception, not because of any actual scienctific or theological reason, but just because it makes us feel less uncomfortable. It 's so old-hat it hardly deserves your attention, but just for fun, let’s treat it as if it deserves serious consideration.

First let’s examine his premises.

Life begins at conception: Correct, this is what the Church teaches. The question of exactly when ensoulment happens has already been discussed in this thread. We should assume, at least for the sake of reasonable caution, that ensoulment happens at conception as well. The Church certainly does, which is why we are obligated to protect human life from conception to natural death, regardless of development, ability, or injury.

That leaves the question of death. It is safe to assume, contrary to what some people are suggesting in this thread, that an embryo that has failed to to implant before the onset of a woman’s menses is dead. What is death, then? Most Christians agree that at death, the soul leaves the body. You cannot flush a soul down the toilet, as he suggests, unless you are flushing a living being, and this would be murder by a particularly nasty drowning. His phrasing suggests he is either ignorant of biology or basic theology of death. Perhaps both.

So, if we accept that life begins at conception and the embryo that was unable to implant is now dead, your professor has actually raised an question on of the treatment of remains, not a soul being flushed like a dead goldfish. Of course it is ideal to treat all human remains with respect and give them a proper burial, precisely because of the dignity we recognize in human life, and when we know about a death we have an obligation to do do so.

However, we can’t bury the dead when we are unaware of their existence. Your professor’s implicit suggestion that ignorance of one death justifies the deliberate causal of another is absurd. His question is based on this line of reasoning:

If a human embryo dies before we know it exists and the remains do not get a proper burial, is it really a person? If not, then embryos are not persons. Therefore, it is morally justifiable to kill an embryo with drugs that render the womb inhospitable and prevent implantation.

For those of us who believe that all human life is equally valuable at all stages, your professor’s question is morally equivalent to this:

"If a man dies naturally in a forest and there is no one there to bury him, was he ever really alive? If not, then men in the he forest are not alive. Therefore, if I see a man in the forest (or suspect there is a man in the he forest) and I don’t want him there, it would be morally justifiable to bomb the forest with him inside.

Your professor is attempting to conflate natural and unnatural death and distract the audience by redefining life instead of asking what our obligations are toward human beings whose exist existence we know of, or (as is the case in the period between. conception and when a woman gets a positive pregnancy test) guess at. The fact that natural deaths occur outside our knowledge does not absolve us of responsibility for the lives we do know about.
 
I would ask your professor to back up the supposed biological facts here–I’ve never heard of that which he says happening, at least with any great frequency. The only time I’ve heard anything of the sort is when a woman is on birth control and thus the uterine lining will not allow for implantation; at times this can lead to the fertilized egg being discarded in this way. This is why we say that the pill is abortofacient–it can cause an abortion at that very early stage of fetal development and the mother is none the wiser.

-ACEGC
We, of course, don’t know exactly how often it happens naturally (that study would be pretty tricky to implement!). But it certainly does happen. Probably quite a bit. It can take normal, healthy couples a few months or more to get pregnant when they are actively trying. Not every sperm or egg is perfect, and if there are severe chromosomal abnormalities or there’s just something not quite right, the zygote may not implant or the female’s body may not allow it.

And think of the fact that 10-20+% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Many of those are likely genetic issues. mayoclinic.com/health/miscarriage/DS01105

I am working on my PhD in Human Development and have taken a number of courses on development from pre-conception through early childhood. There are so many ways early development (from sperm and egg production, through conception, through those vital first few days and weeks!) can go wrong. It’s truly miraculous, in my eyes, that it ever goes right!
 
That is my point…it will not be expelled until after the woman goes through her regular cycle. I would think by this time the fertilized egg, zygote or whatever it is called, would surely be deceased and be expelled in the form of blood during the period. But again, I’m no OBGYN.

The original question about debating the teacher is a done deal. The life is gone in the discussion, so therefore the soul is no longer joined with the body.
I miscarried my first pregnancy. When you miscarry has nothing to do with your cycle. In the earliest weeks of pregnancy you will not hear a heartbeat…doesn’t mean there isn’t one just that you can’t hear it. As pregnancy progresses you may hear it at one visit, and then not hear it at the next. If there’s no heartbeat, the fetus is considered demised. And at that point the soul is no longer joined to the body.

The OB will generally ask if you want to wait and let the fetus expel naturally, or do you want to have a procedure (D&C). In my case, I waited until cramping began and then headed to the hospital. A D&C is often needed as well because women can become infected if all of the products of conception are not expelled. D&C is how the doctors can be sure that doesn’t occur (infection).

While I wish with all my heart that the fetal products could have been scooped back together and inserted into my uterus, that’s just not possible. Besides, miscarriage is usually natures way of taking care of problems, although not all problem pregnancies end in miscarriage.
 
I miscarried my first pregnancy. When you miscarry has nothing to do with your cycle. In the earliest weeks of pregnancy you will not hear a heartbeat…doesn’t mean there isn’t one just that you can’t hear it. As pregnancy progresses you may hear it at one visit, and then not hear it at the next. If there’s no heartbeat, the fetus is considered demised. And at that point the soul is no longer joined to the body.

The OB will generally ask if you want to wait and let the fetus expel naturally, or do you want to have a procedure (D&C). In my case, I waited until cramping began and then headed to the hospital. A D&C is often needed as well because women can become infected if all of the products of conception are not expelled. D&C is how the doctors can be sure that doesn’t occur (infection).

While I wish with all my heart that the fetal products could have been scooped back together and inserted into my uterus, that’s just not possible. Besides, miscarriage is usually natures way of taking care of problems, although not all problem pregnancies end in miscarriage.
Thanks for your comments Mrs. Janet! Sorry for the loss of your child.

I love your siganture statement!
 
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