Help with anti - abortion sites please!

[YADA]

I believe that abortion is an absolute evil. I do not support ‘incrementalism.’ However, to say you will not support legislation that works to eliminate any (even if not all) abortions while you await the perfect legislation is absurd.

My great uncle was the product of a rape. My grandmother loved her brother deeply as did his wife and two daughters. I found him to be a wonderful inspirational person. He was a business owner that created jobs and was a prominate member of society. I am sure his employees appreciated his presence in the world. My aunt adopted three gils, one a child of inces. My cousin is a lovely faith filled Christan and mother of two. Her husband loves her very much.

I will vote to end 99% of abortions and also work tirelessly to end all abortions. We do not live in a perfect world. If my children were threatened by a killer hell bent on murder, I would work to save as many as possible, even if I could not save them all or it cost me my life. With your stance, you would have me let all be murdered if I could not save them all.

From my perspective the “unborn” children are my responsibility (“for whatever you do to the least of My children, you do unto Me”). As I see it, I need to work to save all of the unwanted children that I am able (with His help) even if it be only one.

Pax

 

[dafalax]

A way to convince your friend that a baby is a baby at conception from a scientific stand point would be to point out that at conception, a child becomes a child because it has a full set of human DNA. There is nothing in the world that has a full set of human DNA except human beings. A human fetus is just a human in a stage of development, like toddler or teenager. It doesn’t have a different genus and species; it is still homo sapiens.
At the fifth or sixth week of pregnancy, the baby develops a heart which begins beating. If you have an abortion at this stage, you kill a child with a beating human heart and tiny hands and feet.
Another point i like to bring up often is that a growing baby is not part of the mother’s body like an organ because her body must secrete a special hormone that keeps her cells from attacking the new life. Her body recognizes that it is not part of her; only pro-abortion people do not.
Another point is that in order to end a pregnancy you have to kill the life growing inside the woman. What you are killing has a full set of human DNA, a gender, and, in most cases, tiny human organs. What is it if it isn’t human? It isn’t a tadpole, it’s a baby. And if you want to argue that he can’t feel pain, you have to say that Christopher Reeve could have been legitimately killed because he was paralyzed after his accident and had to be fed by other people. Dependence on others does not make us inhuman, but rather defines our very humanity. Killing the most vulnerable among us takes that humanity away.
And finally, please use the term pro-life instead of anti-abortion. The media uses the term anti-abortion to make us sound bad compared to “pro-choice” (Ooh! They’re for something!). It’s weighted language to our disadvantage.

 

[Knight003]

A “pro life” group claims abortion is murder except for rape or incest well if its murder its murder
the baby of a rape victim is no more guilty of anything that a baby of a non rape victim that is my stand…

And then…

Just like i got slammed by a few people because of my stand on the support of Planned Parenthood Classes
my support is for the good they do to our youth
has nothing to do with making access to Birth control easy.
or because they support “SOME” abortion clinics.

She_He, let me get this straight. You refuse to support Right To Life, because of their exceptions, but you do support Planned Parenthood precisely because of their exceptions.

 

[1ke]

Isilzha:

I have such a hard time debating pro-choicers in general, they think about things in a way so different then me that discussions are hard for me to get through.

I highly recommend the book Pro Life Answers to Pro Choice Arguments by Randy Alcorn.

It can really help you articulate responses to a variety of different arguments.

 

[1ke]

she_he:

Just like i got slammed by a few people because of my stand on the support of Planned Parenthood Classes

Well, let me join in then-- what on earth are you thinking supporting Planned Parenthood?

she_he:

my support is for the good they do to our youth

They do NO good for our youth. They do harm.

she_he:

has nothing to do with making access to Birth control easy.

Huh? You support a group that promotes and distributes contraceptives? That is a bizarre stance for someone claiming to be pro-life without exception!

she_he:

or because they support “SOME” abortion clinics.

Now I know you are confused. PP does not just “support” some abortion clinics they ARE an abortion clinic chain. They kill over 250,000 babies a year. They are responsible for a full 30% of all abortions in the US all by themselves.

she_he:

But I have actually attended some of the classes they have and know 1st hand what they teach i dont slam from hearsay…

Then you know first hand that what they teach is an abomination and if you actually support it then shame on you.

 

[she_he]

I support the stance they take on abstinence the same stance you also have. I support that they council everyone seeking an abortion to an alternate means such as adoption same as you,I support that they explain to our youth that sex should be saved for marriage hopefully same as you.
but yet you say they do NO good so i have to assume you are against all this as well. so what is your stand?

they are in the real world and know most kids aint going to listen so they try to at least explain how to keep them alive,this is what your against, and I am in support of,but my view may very well be keeping your kids or other relatives from possibly dieing because they make a mistake…you may want your child to die for the mistake of marriage out of wedlock, but I sure would rather have my children alive after such a mistake.

If I am wrong for thinking that a young person shouldnt die for a mistake such as this then so be it.I will gladly burn in hell before i ever think one mistake such as this deserves death to a youth. this should also prove my stand on abortion and life and forgiveness …
maybe you should look at yourself
because if you seriously feel that a teen should die for making a mistake of having sex, I feel sorry for you.because you havnt gotten the teachings of our faith.

Drs prescribe BC pills everyday yet you most likely still go to a DR and support them, almost every store you go into will be selling non prescription BC items yet you still shop there,
why do you do this? because of the other things they sell.
my support to PP is not in the form of money,
and its for the other things they do…
John

 

[she_he]

Knight003:

And then…

She_He, let me get this straight. You refuse to support Right To Life, because of their exceptions, but you do support Planned Parenthood precisely because of their exceptions.

I do not support either organization with money period not a single penny.

My reasons for not signing the right to life petitions in my area is they ALWAYS contain that little phrase except in the case of rape or incest. to me there is no exceptions period murder is murder.
I do not want our state representatives thinking i believe in abortion for cases of rape or incest because i do not.
I do not sign petitions for PP either,my support is in the form of communication with other parents only.

I will and do support with money and communications church based right to life as they never contain them exceptions…

I hope this clears up any misconceptions.

John

 

[1ke]

she_he:

I support the stance they take on abstinence the same stance you also have.

John, you are a very confused man. Planned Parenthood does not promote abstinence. They, in fact, have been fighting in court AGAINST abstinence education. They promote free sex for everyone-- children, teens, adults. They promote sex not abstincence.

she_he:

I support that they council everyone seeking an abortion to an alternate means such as adoption same as you,

John, again, you are confused. Planned Parenthood killed over 250,000 babies last year alone. They do not counsel women against abortion-- they sell abortions. They fight in court, in the political arena, and every way they can to keep alternatives from women.

she_he:

I support that they explain to our youth that sex should be saved for marriage hopefully same as you.

John, Planned Parenthood does not teach that sex is for marriage. They teach sex is for anyone, anytime, any way they want it.

she_he:

but yet you say they do NO good so i have to assume you are against all this as well. so what is your stand?

That is right, Planned Parenthood does no good because they do none of these things you list. Planned Parenthood is against life, against abstinence, against everything that the pro-life movement stands for. They are for illicit sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex, abortion, and contraception.

she_he:

they are in the real world and know most kids aint going to listen so they try to at least explain how to keep them alive,this is what your against, and I am in support of,

Now you are just being completely ridiculous. PP does no such thing. They promote the very behaviors that put children at risk. You are supporting a deviant group that kills babies.

she_he:

but my view may very well be keeping your kids or other relatives from possibly dieing because they make a mistake…you may want your child to die for the mistake of marriage out of wedlock, but I sure would rather have my children alive after such a mistake.

You are very deluded. You claim to be pro-life and you support an organization that kills babies. You try to make an argument that contraception is “ok” because it allows “safe” illicit sex. Illicit sex itself is not “ok”, and the idea that contraceptives make it “safe” is a lie.

Contraceptives are just Russian roullette-- they do not prevent STDs, they do not prevent AIDS, they do not prevent pregnancy. Abstinence does all these things. Contraceptives tell kids they are “safe” to engage in risky, bad behaviors. Which is false. It’s a lie. So, no I will not teach my children this lie.

she_he:

If I am wrong for thinking that a young person shouldnt die for a mistake such as this then so be it.I will gladly burn in hell before i ever think one mistake such as this deserves death to a youth. this should also prove my stand on abortion and life and forgiveness …

No it does not make any sense. Contraception is the root of abortion. Where do you think all these “unwanted” pregnancies come from? They come from people using contraceptives and thinking they are “safe” to have illicit sex-- and then becoming pregnant from contraceptive failure.

And, again, your stance on contraceptives is a death sentence for many youths because contraceptives do not prevent STDs, AIDs, or pregnancy.

she_he:

maybe you should look at yourself
because if you seriously feel that a teen should die for making a mistake of having sex, I feel sorry for you.because you havnt gotten the teachings of our faith.

I follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. Yes, I have “gotten” my faith and teachings. A teen that follows church teaching has nothing to worry about. A teen that follows your method of contraceptive sex is at risk of AIDS, STDs, and pregnancy.

she_he:

Drs prescribe BC pills everyday yet you most likely still go to a DR and support them, almost every store you go into will be selling non prescription BC items yet you still shop there,why do you do this?

Well, first of all, this argument makes no sense. But, to answer you question: Yes, I boycott as many pro-death companies and stores as possible whenever I can find an alternative. I do not cooperate in the production, sale, or distribution of contraceptives by buying groceries at a store that also has a pharmacy. Your argument has no logic.

she_he:

because of the other things they sell.
my support to PP is not in the form of money,
and its for the other things they do…

Planned Parenthood kills babies for money-- as their main source of revenue. They cannot be supported by any person calling themselves pro-life.

Honestly, you are a very confused person! I will pray for you.

 

[tamccrackine]

My comments are bolded…

she_he:

I support the stance they take on abstinence the same stance you also have. I support that they council everyone seeking an abortion to an alternate means such as adoption same as you,I support that they explain to our youth that sex should be saved for marriage hopefully same as you.
but yet you say they do NO good so i have to assume you are against all this as well. so what is your stand? **I’m very sorry you’ve been deluded by PP to believe they help the youth. **

they are in the real world and know most kids aint going to listen so they try to at least explain how to keep them alive,this is what your against, and I am in support of,but my view may very well be keeping your kids or other relatives from possibly dieing because they make a mistake…you may want your child to die for the mistake of marriage out of wedlock, but I sure would rather have my children alive after such a mistake.**My kids?? Yeah right… I’ll be very sure to raise my children to stay away from people like you. I thoroughly understand the teachings of the Church therefore I have faith that between myself and my husband, the TRUE people to teach our children of sex, will be able to do just that WITHOUT PP. When and were were abortionists and baby-killing-supporters when the girl that found out she was pregnant had an abortion and she starts to hemorrage? Where were they when she starts to feel so horrible for her “choice” that she is now suicidal. Wow… gotta love that “support” from PP you so love to chant. **

If I am wrong for thinking that a young person shouldnt die for a mistake such as this then so be it. Yep… you’re not wrong for wanting to help and protect the youth… but you are going about it VERY wrong. Attacking the Church for her beliefs in not supporting PP is NOT a good way to start. I suggest you get a Catechism and do serious research that will debunk the trash PP has you believing. I’ll pray for you so you in your journey.

I will gladly burn in hell before i ever think one mistake such as this deserves death to a youth. this should also prove my stand on abortion and life and forgiveness …**the Church is ALWAYS willing to give forgiveness to a REPENTANT sinner. One screw up shouldn’t give a youth a death sentance but that’s EXACLTY what POSSIBLY can happen if they believe PP and their mantra of “safe sex.” If the only thing that happens is pregnancy, we can deal with it… but why should my children be subjected to believe that all birth control is safe and effective and thus take ONE risk and end up with HIV/AIDS, or an STD? **
maybe you should look at yourself
because if you seriously feel that a teen should die for making a mistake of having sex, I feel sorry for you.because you havnt gotten the teachings of our faith.**you should now take this time and back off. You obviously don’t understand the teaching of the Church, so it is you, my friend, that hasnt’ gotten it. **

Drs prescribe BC pills everyday yet you most likely still go to a DR and support them, almost every store you go into will be selling non prescription BC items yet you still shop there,
why do you do this? because of the other things they sell.
my support to PP is not in the form of money,
and its for the other things they do…**You chanting their greatness is bad enough… they don’t need support. Period. Let’s put it this way… you support an organization that is willing to give a 6th grader birth control pills or a condom, they go out and get giggy with it because they are too immature to handle the newfound information, get pregnant or contract an STD and then they provide abortion services. What part of that do you see is healthy for children? Children need to be taught about sex when the time is appropriate and they’re able to handle it mentally and emotinally from people that SERIOUSLY have their best interests in heart… not an abortion mill looking to make a quick dime when their cheap condoms fail. PP has no right to interfere with the upbringing of my children and I will be teaching my children the evils of PP. It’s sick. I believe I’ve said this in another thread to you… you seem to be on a journey and I will pray for you. **

                                    John

 

[she_he]

I admit its been a while since i was in one of them PP classes and will make an effort to see if what you are claiming is true.
if its even remotely true i will post an appology to this thread.

But as far as believeing that practicing the faith means a person will never stray, sorry cant believe that.
if that were the case the world wouldnt need confessionals except occasionally when a new convert comes in.
People are prone to sin, and esspecially lust and esspecially our youth…
If i haddnt known so many very religious girls and boys get provoked in some way into this very same situation I would feel as you do

on another note i see your feelings of right to life only go as far as if they dont sin… My view is much broader I feel its a right to life even after you are born and make some mistakes.
John

 

[Heavenston]

If you are really interested in the statistics on Rape Victims who have chosen life or death for their child, read the book VICTIMS and VICTORS written by Theresa Burke and David Reardon. This book summarizes the greatest amount of data on this to date. Women who abort the fruit of rape describe it as a “surgical rape.” Evil is never the answer to evil. Anyone who has a child resulting from non-consensual sex will tell you that God makes straight crooked paths in these situations and the long-term outcome(albeit not without intense suffering) is a beautiful child who should not be punished(or extinguished!) for the crime of his/her father. This is our faith, i.e., sacrificial love not selfishness.

Choose Life

 

[1ke]

she_he:

I admit its been a while since i was in one of them PP classes and will make an effort to see if what you are claiming is true. if its even remotely true i will post an appology to this thread.

We’ll be here.

she_he:

But as far as believeing that practicing the faith means a person will never stray, sorry cant believe that. if that were the case the world wouldnt need confessionals except occasionally when a new convert comes in.

I did not say that practicing the faith meant never sinning. That is our goal, and through grace we can overcome sin. But yes, people do sin.

she_he:

People are prone to sin, and esspecially lust and esspecially our youth… If i haddnt known so many very religious girls and boys get provoked in some way into this very same situation I would feel as you do

There is a difference between the reality of sin and promoting of sin.

People sin. That is a fact. So, your logic states that because people commit sins we should teach them how to commit them.

People steal, so perhaps the church should hold a class on how to use a mask and plot a proper get-a-way so as to minimize the consequences to the thief. That’s absurd.

The Church teaches the Truth-- she is a beacon for those who seek the truth. She can only teach the Truth. She cannot teach a lie, she cannot teach people to sin. Contraception is always and everywhere a sin. It is anti-life.

You call yourself pro-life-- but yet you promote contraception. The definition of contraception is “against life”… that’s what the word contraception means.

she_he:

on another note i see your feelings of right to life only go as far as if they dont sin… My view is much broader I feel its a right to life even after you are born and make some mistakes.

This doesn’t even make any sense. The right to life is for all people. And, yes, all of us sin. The right to life and the “right” to use contraception are not the same thing. They are actually quite opposite. Contraception is not the path to life, it is the path to spiritual death, and possibly to physical death as well.

 

[tamccrackine]

she_he:

I admit its been a while since i was in one of them PP classes and will make an effort to see if what you are claiming is true.
if its even remotely true i will post an appology to this thread.

But as far as believeing that practicing the faith means a person will never stray, sorry cant believe that.
if that were the case the world wouldnt need confessionals except occasionally when a new convert comes in.
People are prone to sin, and esspecially lust and esspecially our youth…
If i haddnt known so many very religious girls and boys get provoked in some way into this very same situation I would feel as you do

on another note i see your feelings of right to life only go as far as if they dont sin… My view is much broader I feel its a right to life even after you are born and make some mistakes.

                           John

I commend you for wanting to take a new look at PP. If you have questions, please post them, alot of us here are willing to help you understand what they are really about.

I am pro-life through and through. I have many children, more than two girls, so I have a legitamate fear of PP trying to get their crazy ideas into my girls’ heads. It’s a scary thing to know that such a huge, well-known organization is bent on harming children and saying they are just out to protect the children. I’m also well aware that “good Catholic girls” do sin… I’m the living proof of that. I’m also the living proof of God’s love because I’m still alive. After the mistakes I made in my life, I didn’t want to live anymore. By the grace of God and the support of my husband, I found hope again and began to live again. I will put my life down to protect my girls’ from the lies PP puts out. I have chosen to homeschool my kids because of the sexual perversity that is now in the schools thanks to PP (and a few other reasons).

1ke has a good point with contraception and teaching people to steal. That’s a good analogy.

We will continue to pray for you and again, if you have questions, please post… we’ll help you through them!

 

[she_he]

Ok I talked with my oldest son, who filled me in a few things.
none of us are totally correct and none totally wrong, Now before anyone slams me let me relate what he told me he remebers of the class he had…

they were taught about many things,natural biology,STDs,Pregnancy,and of course abortion was also brought up.

he was told the best defense against an STD or a preganancy was abstinence which they relayed was Not having “relations”
and from what i gathered this was the jist of that.

they spent a lot of time on “ABC” and condoms, and how no matter what method you used besides a condom that a condom should also be used along with it. because of the threat of an STD.
they did explain that condom use does not guarantee safety from an STD,they explained that with pills many variations can still
result in a prenancy, things that will cause a “pill” to be rendered
not effective such as antibiotics, and drug use.
They explained dangers in drug and alcohol use for lowering “inhibitions”
these things above I cannot condone or condemn as a teaching
to youths,I think honestly its better than saying dont do it because its for married people only,this takes some unwarranted mystery out of sex, its shows the "horrors that can be associated with it.It also gives them cause for concern to a future marriage aprtner if they know what they are asking for.such as a permiscuous person before they met a non permiscuous person.
anyways i am sure you all understand where that one was going.

They did however cover abortion,and it was not as it was in the class I attended,made out to be a “last resort” It was mentioned that abortion is not an answer for BC but it didnt cover the negatives as the class i had did.
so that being said I have to admit i was wrong on a lot of my reasonings,I see no reason to attend another class,

I see nothing wrong with teaching kids about STDs,and Preganancy,
I dont like the way Abortion was proclaimed and therefore will not speak up to parents about these classes anymore.

I do admit when i am wrong,
when i had the class it was a total different teaching entirely…

to those whom I may have been upset with my original posts I offer my apologies…But at that time I was speaking from what I actually knew and had experienced FIRST HAND…not from “things i have heard”

Incidently My fiance whom also uses this nickname didnt feel the way i HAD felt about this issue,so if she posts dont blame her.
she dont use “john” as a sign off name
John

 

[1ke]

John,

I am glad that you can now see that PP is not an organization to be associated with. The will never teach that abortion is wrong. They will never teach that there is anything wrong with sex outside marriage-- they will never teach that sex belongs inside of marriage.

Regardless, that is all irrelevant because no matter what, it comes down to one thing: they kill babies for money.

 

[tamccrackine]

John, I’m glad you took the time to have a discussion with someone that has had a recent encounter with a PP “class.” Yes, teaching youth about sex is alright, as long as they are given the truth about it. And you have to admit, the best advice to give any youth is abstinance… and it’s not just trying to tell youth that “it’s for married adults only.” It’s a simple reality that there is a very good reason aside from just married life to remain chaste. 15 minutes of “fun” shouldn’t result in a lifetime of pain, misery, possible infertility, death. It’s not fair to our youth to disillusion them into thinking that condoms and that stuff are safe. They deserve the truth. My folks never ranted and raved about “married only sex”, rather they told me sex is wonderful in the right context (which of course is marriage) and here’s the good, the bad and the ugly. The ugly scared the crud out of me and the bad was enough to make me think twice about sex. Now that I’m married, I can see why my parents wanted me to wait and I can only hope and pray I am successful in teaching my girls’ to persevere through the tough challenges of the teen/early 20’s years … and the best of all… I hope and pray I raise girls’ with strong enough self esteem and self respect that they can stand firm in their convictions of waiting and being pro-life without worry.

And I’m very glad that this discussion remained charitable. It’s great to see a thread that didn’t end up in blasts, then being shut down. I’m glad you looked further and I thank you for acknowledging your misunderstanding. I hope you don’t think some of us were being uncharitable in our advice or posts. And if I was, I sincerely apologize. I wasn’t trying to anger you, rather wanting to show you the error of PP.
Peace,
Theresa