Help with Bible defense

[Flavius_Aetius]

Hello, I realize this question has probably been asked numerous times but using the search engine has not been to successful and any thread I find that may help would be nine pages in and completely off-topic.

Anyways ever since an ‘aquaintance’ that I knew asked my religion he’s seemed to take it on his unbelieving self to become my personal tempter and doubt maker any chance I see him. The guys the kind of atheist that compares the Bible to Mythology of pagans, and apparently read it only to find any single contradiction that could be exploited.

So far I’ve been asked two questions that I’d like the forum to help me defend. First is the numerous demands by God’s prophets for death to nonbelievers in the OT ; and the death that is allowed and approved of by God. The other part is stories like Noah’s ark and others that even I as a Catholic regretablly have small faith in it being the truth. Which comes to me asking; “Should all stories in the Bible be taken as complete fact.” Another thing that I’d like to know is if those influenced by the Holy Spirit to write were capable of making human error in the writings of scripture?

I realize that even a good defense will not change his opinion but man do I want to wipe off that smug face of his!

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

So far I’ve been asked two questions that I’d like the forum to help me defend. First is the numerous demands by God’s prophets for death to nonbelievers in the OT ; and the death that is allowed and approved of by God.

I’m not familiar with that in the O.T., all I’ve ever noticed are the verses where God is condemning a city and the Prophets are pleading for it to be spared. “If I can find 10 righteous men…if I can find 5…1…will you spare it” Sodom and Gomorrah excluded. so, could you give at least one reference for that?

The other part is stories like Noah’s ark and others that even I as a Catholic regretablly have small faith in it being the truth. Which comes to me asking; “Should all stories in the Bible be taken as complete fact.”

All Scripture should be taken literally first,( although Scripture is NOT a science book, nor is it a blow-by-blow history book…it isn’t incompatible to either one either, if read with an open mind) and the subsequent senses are subject to that:

CCC;
The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84

1. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85

1. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.8

Noah’s Flood is a literal event - however, it can, and probably should be looked at as a Local Flood - the known world in other words, where the whole population of the world lived. I came across an article where the flood was contained to the Mediterranean Basin as the locality of the flood - including the black sea. Which is also the reason for the dead sea in Israel. I don’t have it at hand at the moment - I’ll look for it again. it was a very good article, written by a Biblical (Catholic too) scholar.

Another thing that I’d like to know is if those influenced by the Holy Spirit to write were capable of making human error in the writings of scripture?

I would have to say No. Although Scripture was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit rather than something akin to possession, the Authors of Scripture were surrendered to God, and followed His leading. Which is why, even with centuries and millenniums between some of the writings, Scripture meshes so perfectly. What other explanation is there for the tapestry which we have as Scripture?

That is my rationale - there are others here who can do a better job of defending this. Everything else of mine as well

I realize that even a good defense will not change his opinion but man do I want to wipe off that smug face of his!

Not your job to change his mind - that falls to the Holy Spirit - all we can do is plant seeds…seeds of the Truth as well as seeds of doubt pertaining to his beliefs.

Handle with care though - the best witness is one of example, and love. Although being firm is sometimes necessary, especially in cases where the person seems to be “Kicking against the pricks” as was happening with Paul, and appears to be happening here - the True force behind your responses is always God. Pray for him.

I’ll look for that article

Peace

John

 

[fewnotmany]

First is the numerous demands by God’s prophets for death to nonbelievers in the OT ; and the death that is allowed and approved of by God.

When I get questions from non-believers, I always start with the elementary. What does the words mean? The word death in the NT original greek is Thanatos (than’-at-os)

It means separation, not annilation. The OT and the NT are in harmony with respects to separation from non-believers.

Titus 3:10 says after the 2nd time you correct a person, have no fellowship with him. That is separation, thanatos, death.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Hi

I found that article - it’s here
although I may have misspoke when I said he’s Catholic. (I thought it was on a different site.) Still interesting, and probably has a lot of Truth to it - in my opinion.

There are a couple of articles found on CAF in the Library section (click on ‘Library’ above) pertaining to Scripture and Inspiration.

Here is One
and here is another
There are quite a few more over the under ‘Scripture and Tradition’.

Oh, I forgot to add above, pertaining to Scripture and the literal - the ‘literal’ sense is excluded when it comes to the parables, and sometimes the prophetic (like the dragon rising out of the water in revelations) although they aren’t necessarily fables - they could be actual people and events - they are not meant to be literal, they are meant as lessons…examples.
Hope this helps

Peace

John

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

I’m not familiar with that in the O.T., all I’ve ever noticed are the verses where God is condemning a city and the Prophets are pleading for it to be spared. “If I can find 10 righteous men…if I can find 5…1…will you spare it” Sodom and Gomorrah excluded. so, could you give at least one reference for that?

With embarassment to myself I was typing on emotion yesterday; I really haven’t read my bible thoroughly and wouldn’t know were to find such passages…I appoligize wasting space on the thread and really everything said has been enough for now.

 

[JRKH]

I’m not familiar with that in the O.T., all I’ve ever noticed are the verses where God is condemning a city and the Prophets are pleading for it to be spared. “If I can find 10 righteous men…if I can find 5…1…will you spare it” Sodom and Gomorrah excluded. so, could you give at least one reference for that?

In all fairness to PraRFLEsEkHm, there are some pretty bloody instances when the Jews are moving into the promised land. I seem to recall someting about one town needing to be circumsized to save themselves and then being slain while they were recovering from the procedure. Though I will also admit to poor knowledge of the OT.

As to things like the flood, there can be many schools of thought on it. The Truth is we just can’t know for sure. However that does not make a difference to our Belief in Our Dear Lord Jesus Christ, or in our Faith in an Afterlife. Just be as good and patient an example of Christ as you can be and let it go at thet.

Since it is obvious that he really isn’t looking for proofs, you could just calmly and generously explain to him that maybe he should not be so smug in his convictions, which of course he is entitled to. After all, if he is right and we are wrong, then we all wind up compost. On the other hand if we are right and he is wrong, it’s a whole different matter.
Another point to mention is, why does he feel the need to belittle your faith?
Is he trying to save you from this “Mythology” of an afterlife so you can be rewarded with a grave? After all, if there is nothing then our faith is a harmless indulgence which should not bother him. So the question becomes, why does it bother him so. Then pray that he opens his heart God.

Peace
James