help with converting

[jmcrae]

Hey all,

for sometime I’v been thinking about converting to Catholicism from my Baptist background.

My first bit of advice would be to take your time, and do things in an orderly manner.

If you have not yet attended a Sunday Mass, now would be a good time to try that out - before getting too deep into the books. Books are good, but the “real life” experience will be of greater value to you - things that you read about will “come alive” in a way that just thinking about them can’t really do.

But I have a few questions that I just want to throw out there. My doubts with protestantism started with sola scriptura, but couldn’t one argue that the books of the Bible were infabllible by their very nature and would eventually emerged as the canon without the church?

If there were no human authority in place to “ratify” God’s choices, then how would God get the information out to everyone?

After all, God uses our parents to teach us how to survive in this world, and uses secular authorities to teach us how to be good citizens. Why would He suddenly leave it up to our personal judgement, how to be good Christians, or where to find the Bible?

When I was pondering this problem (I’m a convert, too) I realized that I believe the Bible because my mother taught me to, and because it is packaged a certain way. If it were packaged like a paperback novel, and my mother (or someone else whose opinions I trust) never said anything about it being God’s word, then there’s probably no way that I, personally, would know that it was anything special.

I guess you could say that they Holy Spirit would guide individuals to know what books were right, and not need an infallible church to do so. How can I know for sure that the early Christians were Catholics? I never hear the infallibility of the Pope talked about in the New Testament. I’v read a lot of the little quotes from Early Church Fathers on this website and others, but whenever I see a small quotation to justify a huge doctrine such as Papal infallibilty I tend to think that the quote was taken out of context.

There is a set of three books written by William Jurgens called The Faith of the Early Fathers. This is an excellent resource for anyone doing “beginner” research on the writings of the Early Fathers. It has a doctrinal index, and also a scriptural index, so you can easily look up topics like papal infallibility, the teachings about Mary, the Eucharist, and so on. You can also check the scriptural index to see what the Early Fathers had to say about passages like John 3:16, etc.

To be fair I think protestants do this all the time when they use Augustine quotes in an attempt to prove that Augustine was a calvinist. I’v read some early Christian writings, but I don’t really have the time to consume every early Christian writing ever in order to conclude whether they protestant or Catholic. Any suggestions?

The Faith of the Early Fathers is long enough to be useful, and short enough to be usable. I highly recommend it.

Another broad question. Why the neccesity of the sacraments and huge amount of theology that go along with them? When I read the New Testament it seems fairly straightforward, something along the lines of “repent and beleive in Jesus”, repent meaning changing your lifestyle to conform with the teachings of Jesus.

I made a web site one time that deals with these kinds of questions. You can find it HERE.

So why do we have penances, indulgences, purgatory, assumption of Mary, and many other complex theological ideas that do not appear in what seems a fairly simple Gospel message found in the New Testament. One could even argue that these obscure the all-suffciency of Christ because they get in the way of you and and Jesus.

Speaking personally and from my own experience of using these things, what I find is that rather than making a barrier, these things are actually bridges and windows to Jesus. For example, hearing the words of the Absolution in human voice when I’m in the Confessional “makes a window” to Jesus, since I know that these are His words, and not merely the words of the priest.

Indulgences are like steps along a bridge; each time I read the Scriptures or pray the Rosary, or some other Indulgenced activity, I’m growing closer to Jesus, and closer to becoming the person that He created me to be.

I really, really hope that I don’t sound anti-catholic, because I’m not. I really respect the Church and her members, I just really need to have questions answered. There days in my spiritual journey where I think I’m for sure going to convert to Catholicism, and there are other day when I think I’m going to remain protestant . I guess this is one of my more protestant days. Any help would be great. And of course prayers. God Bless.

I remember what that was like!!

Pray - lots. And go to Mass on Sunday. (Don’t receive Holy Communion, yet - but you knew that, already.)

 

[DVIN_CKS]

Think of the sacraments NOT as something WE do for God, but rather something that God does for us. God instituted the sacraments to be ways that we could receive the supernatural graces necessary to help us on our journey home.

I’ve gotten the feeling based on numerous discussions with a Baptist friend that the Sacraments are seen as “works” that we Catholics “do” to “earn” our way into heaven. This isn’t true. By participating in the Sacraments, Catholics are being obedient to God and utilizing the instruments of grace that He established for our spiritual well being. We participate in the Sacraments because it is pleasing to God and beneficial to our spiritual growth. Sacraments are a gift from God that allow us to participate more fully in his love for us.

If you haven’t purchased a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church do so!! This should be a MUST for anyone discerning the Catholic faith. Don’t be intimidated by its size (actually, you can get a smaller paperback version). It has LOADS of info in it, but it is all truth!!

 

[Mommyof02green]

Pray - lots. And go to Mass on Sunday. (Don’t receive Holy Communion, yet - but you knew that, already.)

The only thing I would add is: consider getting a “Sunday Missal”.

The Missals have the “ORDER of The Mass” in it. Which simply tells you what is being said and when to kneel, sit, stand etc.

The Missals also have the Scripture readings in them that is going to be read that day Which at times can be helpful.

You can get a “Sunday Missal” at any local Catholic Book Store. If you don’t know of a book store in your area, you can buy one via web at www.ewtn.com or www.catholicfamilygifts.com

 

[RCCDefender]

The Faith of the Early Fathers is excellent! I got them for my birthday one year and have found them so useful. You may want to check the library for these, I think the whole set might cost a bit.

 

[jmcrae]

Here is what he actually said,

"There are a host of issues of interest here. In the first place, this incident is yet another reminder of the danger of the papacy. This is not a popular point to make – even among some confused evangelicals – but it is a necessary point. Pope Benedict XVI is a man of incredible brilliance. His indictments of secularism and liberal theology are among the most masterful theological documents of recent decades. Nevertheless, the office he holds is an unbiblical institution based in a monarchial ministry that is incompatible with the New Testament’s vision of the church.

You mean like John 21:15-19, when Jesus makes Peter to be the Chief Shepherd of the Church?

Or how about Acts 15, where the authority of the Church was invoked through a General Council, to settle the question of the status of Gentile converts to Christianity?

If the authority of the Church is not heirarchical, then what gave St. Paul the right to command various churches in different cities, by letter, and by what authority did St. John have the right (which seems to be assumed by Jesus Himself) to write to seven different Dioceses and tell them what they were doing wrong? Why did Jesus not simply appear to each of them in person to give them the bad news? Why did He get St. John the Apostle to write to them?

Furthermore, he claims also to be a head of state – a situation that adds untold layers of additional confusion."

The “state” consists of only a few blocks in the middle of the city of Rome. Also, it is entirely populated by celibate men, so I’m not sure what the big deal is.

here is the link albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=774

How do Catholics respond?

I read the link, and I noticed that he quotes the Catechism and other Catholic writings out of context. You would be doing yourself a favour to find these documents on line and read the entire section on Islam for yourself.

 

[servus]

Could it come from the oral tradition of the church, the teachings that have been handed down by the apostles?

Well if someone came to me and said, here this is a practice that is not in the Bible but came down from the time of the Apostles. The first question we should ask, is: does it contradict the Bible? During the time of Christ, the pharisee’s had added hundreds of traditions and laws to the Old Testament, which made them so unprepared for Christ’s first coming that they rejected Him. Christ always answered with “It is written…” returning to the sincere milk of the written Scriptures.

God Bless,

servus

 

[jmcrae]

Well if someone came to me and said, here this is a practice that is not in the Bible but came down from the time of the Apostles. The first question we should ask, is: does it contradict the Bible?

That’s why we need a Magesterium to help us interpret the Bible.

During the time of Christ, the pharisee’s had added hundreds of traditions and laws to the Old Testament, which made them so unprepared for Christ’s first coming that they rejected Him. Christ always answered with “It is written…” returning to the sincere milk of the written Scriptures.

They also didn’t have the promise of the protection of the Holy Spirit, to prevent them from straying from the teachings of Moses. We do have that, and we even find it recorded in Scripture - in Matthew 16:18 we read, after Christ establishes the Church on 'Rocky" - “… and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” We find this promise to the Church repeated in various forms throughout the New Testament.

I have actually encountered many Protestants who consider these promises to be for “the reader” - that is, for themselves as individuals. They believe that they are personally being promised that they themselves individually cannot misinterpret the Scriptures.

What they don’t realize is that the documents of the New Testament were originally addressed to entire ecclesial communities who were already operating under Apostolic authority; not to random individuals of whatever or even no church affliliation.

Another point to keep in mind is that we know the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God through the Oral Tradition of the Church. There is nothing within its pages that explicitly tells us this.

The same Oral Tradition that tells us about the Bible also tells us about the Sacraments, about Mary, and many other subjects. It seems irrational to believe it on that one point alone, and not on everything else.

There are two rational responses that I can see:

The first would be to doubt the Oral Tradition on everything, and simply admit that you don’t know whether you have a Bible, since you don’t know if it’s really the Word of God, and you don’t know whether it is inerrant.

The second rational response would be to not only believe the Bible, but also to believe everything else that is taught us through the Oral Tradition.

In other words, either trust the Oral Tradition, or don’t trust it, but don’t trust it unquestioningly on one point alone (the Bible), and then doubt it on every other point. Either it’s true, in which case everything it teaches us is true, or it isn’t true, and nothing that it teaches us is reliable.