Help with debating a Mormon

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Well quite a few J.Smith’s witnesses also left his church, some even recanted their stories as well. Based upon your argument that Strang lied because his witnesses recanted their stories then the same logic applies to J.Smith and mormonism. It was a power struggle, unfortuantely B.Young had the majority of followers and public opinion in his favor among those followers so the Strang branch of the LDS religion was strangled out…almost literally since Strang mysteriously died…I mean was murdered.
No one recanted their testimonies of what they saw. Not one. But some did leave the church. But not one of the 11 witnesses to the book of mormon recanted. And there was a small 'power struggle but not a very spirited one. Sidney wanted to be leader and Strang. And some wanted the next leader to be Joseph Smith’s son.
 
When pressed to go read for themselves, inevitably they revert to their testimonies. They don’t need to follow up on my evidence since they “know the church is true” or “it doesn’t matter since the church has affected my life so positively”. How very convenient.

NS
That was a tactic they taught in the MTC. Whenever anyone wants to debate, or get into a “Scriputre or Bashing” session they would encourage you to just simply bear your testimony. I know now because when it comes to comparing tit for tat out of the scriptures Mormonism doesn’t stand a chance. Even when you do get into a disscussion with them they have to use the BoM or D&C, two “Scriptural” references THEY wrote! Convenient indeed and even then they take references out of context or the references really don’t reinforce their main argument.
It is just hard for me to understand how anyone who does some study and some problem solving …does some research can honestly stick with the LDS doctrine?
 
Same here, though it still took me another 6+ years to get out.
To get out is quite simple: just walk out the door and never to return. It is that simple. It certainly doesn’t take 6 years to walk out a door.
 
No one recanted their testimonies of what they saw. Not one. But some did leave the church. But not one of the 11 witnesses to the book of mormon recanted. And there was a small 'power struggle but not a very spirited one. Sidney wanted to be leader and Strang. And some wanted the next leader to be Joseph Smith’s son.
This isn’t anything new. There have been “witnesses” to many other similar situations, as well as people that taught things that turned out to be false. The 11 witnesses not recanting their testimony is not a proof of anything.
 
That was a tactic they taught in the MTC. Whenever anyone wants to debate, or get into a “Scriputre or Bashing” session they would encourage you to just simply bear your testimony.
Contention is of the devil and should be avoided. But debate is fine as long as it stays respectful. But…as one can see from some posters here, respect is hard to come by.
 
This isn’t anything new. There have been “witnesses” to many other similar situations, as well as people that taught things that turned out to be false. The 11 witnesses not recanting their testimony is not a proof of anything.
Actually it is. To have 11 people in on a fraud and have not one recant is actually against human nature. Human nature would dictate that at least one or two would have recanted what they saw.
 
Actually it is. To have 11 people in on a fraud and have not one recant is actually against human nature. Human nature would dictate that at least one or two would have recanted what they saw.
Again, this is nothing new in history, let along religious history. Human nature dictates many things relative to this issue, especially psychologically, but I won’t discuss that here.
 
Actually it is. To have 11 people in on a fraud and have not one recant is actually against human nature. Human nature would dictate that at least one or two would have recanted what they saw.
Ok so the 11 didn’t recant, maybe they did see “Golden Plates” with writing on them, what does that prove? Nothing, it proves they saw plates that appeared metalic even golden with writing engraven upon them. It proves just about as much as seeing the Strang plates…nothing but metal plates with made up writng engraven on them.
If the Gold Plates were so important to establishing the truthfulness of what J.Smithhad to offer, why not let other people see them? Why not make a rubbing of the engraven language and submitt the styles witnessed on the plates to Linguists, or scholars emphising in that sort of thing?
Why only disclose the plates to relatives and members of the church and no one else?
After seeing these plates, why would so many of them fall away?

The point is just like Strang, J.Smith’s plates were also made up. Yeah people didn’t recant seeing the plates but it doesn’t prove anything, it just proves they saw some plates. I was drawing a paralell between Strang and J.Smith. J.Smith had more followers and had already established his movement, Strang was just starting out. True it was a small sect to be sure, however it wasn’t allowed to grow due to his murder.
J.Smith died for his cause, the plates and restoration and he his labeled a Martyr. Strang makes the same declaration yet he is labeled as a Crack Pot and a liar.
Whats the difference between the two of them? It isn’t simply one was telling the truth and one wasn’t.
Either way, Mormonism relies on the members sharing testimonies, true contention is of the devil, but healthy debate spurs discussion which is a tool to reach further enlightenment on any given issue. Debate on such issues within the Mormon church are frowned upon pure and simple, managed information, they don’t want you to debate because that would lead to questions, questions lead to answers, answers that just a “Testimony” can not provide. They rely on the Testimony because they don’t have one critical piece to the equation…fact. They don’t have fact to back up their stand.
 
Me too. It took about that long to finally act on what both my brain and heart were telling me to do. Its tough when you grow up in that cult then have to go against family and friends to do what is right.

I am amazed when I read through these threads the lack of information from current members of the LDS faith. Most of the posts they don’t even wuote the BoM right, and when they do they pull their information out of context. Anyway thanks for shring your experience as well. I appreciated it.
No matter how long it took you to get out, the main thing is you did!!!

You, Paul, Thurifur, Rebecca, and any others I may have failed to mention are blessed, and are a blessing.

I can’t tell you how much I enjoy reading things from your perspective.

I know how hard it is to leave a faith that you have grown up in, and your family is in. It is like you are turning your back on them, and your heritage.

But, by example, you are planting seeds that may bear fruit with them.

God Bless all of you who left, and for what you bring to the forums.
 
No matter how long it took you to get out, the main thing is you did!!!

You, Paul, Thurifur, Rebecca, and any others I may have failed to mention are blessed, and are a blessing.

I can’t tell you how much I enjoy reading things from your perspective.

I know how hard it is to leave a faith that you have grown up in, and your family is in. It is like you are turning your back on them, and your heritage.

But, by example, you are planting seeds that may bear fruit with them.

God Bless all of you who left.
Thank you! Just to clarify though, I have never been Mormon. I have studied it on and off since 2002, from both sides. I’m rereading the Book of Mormon actually right now to reformulate my ideas on various issues. Should be interesting!
 
Thank you! Just to clarify though, I have never been Mormon. I have studied it on and off since 2002, from both sides. I’m rereading the Book of Mormon actually right now to reformulate my ideas on various issues. Should be interesting!
My apologies.

Good luck in your endeavours with the BoM.
 
No matter how long it took you to get out, the main thing is you did!!!

You, Paul, Thurifur, Rebecca, and any others I may have failed to mention are blessed, and are a blessing.

I can’t tell you how much I enjoy reading things from your perspective.

I know how hard it is to leave a faith that you have grown up in, and your family is in. It is like you are turning your back on them, and your heritage.

But, by example, you are planting seeds that may bear fruit with them.

God Bless all of you who left.
Thanks. I appreciate your kind words. I am amazed at the Grace of God that so many of us from various but similar backgrounds have seemed to find our way to the light. Through adversity and trial we’ve been strong enought to follow the truth. This of course is Gods Grace that it is ultimately possible. I hope I could be an example to someone, just one soul to help them find the way as well.
Thanks again.
 
My apologies.

Good luck in your endeavours with the BoM.
No problem and thanks 😉 I think Catholic Answers needs updated articles on Mormonism from a Catholic perspective, so maybe I’ll submit some of my writings. 🤷
 
No problem and thanks 😉 I think Catholic Answers needs updated articles on Mormonism from a Catholic perspective, so maybe I’ll submit some of my writings. 🤷
Please do!!!

Even if they don’t publish them, I am sure they will be fascinating reading.
 
To get out is quite simple: just walk out the door and never to return. It is that simple. It certainly doesn’t take 6 years to walk out a door.
It’s not that simple when you’re born and raised in the Church, surrounded by Mormons, loving your people and your culture, being identified as and self-identifying as Mormon, the “only true and living church” on the face of the earth, serving faithfully and to the best of your ability, and then delving into Church history and discovering to your dismay that what you were taught all of your life was a gloss of partial facts and “spin”, white-washed by a committee housed in the Church Office Building on N. Temple. Creating a new identity for yourself, when all you knew and were was Mormon, and when the people in the world who matter most to you suddenly think there’s something wrong with you, can take some people many years to accomplish. Some don’t even try, since the journey can be painful - you lose your moorings and your family/social relations are stained - perhaps more so than in most other traditions, since Mormon communities and families are so tight-knit and insular.

It’s seldom as simple as you imply, WhyMe.

NS
 
Am I the only one who notices that none of the Mormons on these fora seem to have ever read the Book of Mormon? None of them seems to know the first thing about it. We ex-Mormons seem to know all of their scriptures far more thoroughly than they do, which is, I suppose, why we left and they have not (as yet).

Parker claimed that there are no BoM references to "great cities", whereupon I posted ten of them.

Diana claimed that the only BoM reference to horses was in the Book of Ether. I posted horse references from 1 Nephi through 3 Nephi.

Now Diana claims that “white and delightsome” has nothing to do with skin color, and Ricko posts the BoM text that shows that to be false.

This is either abject ignorance or attempts at willful deception. I have my own opinion on which it is. 😉

Paul
You also showed many references to horses after a Mormon claimed there were none. I think deception is a kind word for it.
 
No matter how long it took you to get out, the main thing is you did!!!

You, Paul, Thurifur, Rebecca, and any others I may have failed to mention are blessed, and are a blessing.
Some people are mean spirited who claim to be catholic. I will not mention names but I don’t think that it is from a catholic perspective nor are they being led by a light. Their tone betrays them. First, it is not about being able to get out. It is all a matter of just leaving. Nobody is in a locked compound nor are they in prison. It is that simple. The door is always open.
 
It’s not that simple when you’re born and raised in the Church, surrounded by Mormons, loving your people and your culture, being identified as and self-identifying as Mormon, the “only true and living church” on the face of the earth, serving faithfully and to the best of your ability, and then delving into Church history and discovering to your dismay that what you were taught all of your life was a gloss of partial facts and “spin”, white-washed by a committee housed in the Church Office Building on N. Temple.

It’s seldom as simple as you imply, WhyMe.

NS
Not much different from being from a devout catholic family, born in the catholic church and raised in the catholic church who was raised to believe that the catholic church is the only true and living church on the face of the earth but after delving into church history during the dark ages or middle ages become disappointed and join the mormons.

I am sure that it must also be difficult for that catholic to tell his devout family.

Still it is not about getting out. It is just about leaving through the door.
 
Thank you! Just to clarify though, I have never been Mormon. I have studied it on and off since 2002, from both sides. I’m rereading the Book of Mormon actually right now to reformulate my ideas on various issues. Should be interesting!
You are polite and your tone is usually respectful. Others can learn from you. 🙂
 
Again, this is nothing new in history, let along religious history. Human nature dictates many things relative to this issue, especially psychologically, but I won’t discuss that here.
There would have been many opportunities to come clean. To assume that all just believed the fraud as they viewed plates and where not in on the fraud is a stretch. And to assume that there were never any plates just 11 co-conspirators with Joseph Smith would also be a stretch.

First as time moves along the mind begins to have doubts about what one saw. Second, to have 11 people in on a fraud and never coming clean is a stretch too. Now some of the witnesses died before JS. But the ones that were left could have come clean when JS was in prison for treason facing the death penality. And if I were JS, that would have been my concern if I were a fraudster or a prop maker. But…it wasn’t.
 
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