Help with debating a Mormon

[Anna_Scott]

I’m having a friendly debate with some Mormon friends and the argument they kind of have me stumped on is their concept of continuing revelation. Obviously, as Catholics, we believe that everything we need for salvation has been revealed by the Deposit of Faith and that we don’t need ongoing revelation.

I mention the fact that Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the church and they say that means the Holy Spirit would continue to provide revelation to the church and the fact that the Catholic church relies on councils to determine things proves that we don’t have the spirit revealing the truth to us.

Bataar: Since you are Catholic, I will leave the issue of “revelation” to Catholic Forum Members.

As for having a “friendly debate with Mormon friends,” please consider my personal experience, before you continue your debate with them:

Posted by Anna Scott to Finrock,

"My Mormon friends did answer my questions. They confirmed the very beliefs that you say are “either misconstrued LDS doctrine or not LDS doctrine at all.”

They confirmed the following as beliefs of the LDS Church: God has a wife and lives on another planet (Kolob); there are other gods of other worlds; Joseph Smith wrote that he believed that Adam was god.

Even now, there are websites that confirm these beliefs, and even say Mormons believe that God was once a man, which fits the writings of Joseph Smith.

I would have let this go; but since you are denying that these things are doctrines of the LDS Church; I will tell you more about my experience with the Mormon church.

A Mormon bishop and his wife were my neighbors, before my divorce. I had known them for years. I admired the strength of their family. The bishop seemed like the father I never had. So, after my divorce, they invited me to their church. For weeks, I took lessons at the bishop’s home- with the Mormon Bishop and two Mormon missionaries.

I was at a very vulnerable point in my life. I wanted to belong someplace. I was a single mom, with no family in my city.

So, I went to the Mormon church and finished all the lessons. There were things that concerned me about the church services. I rarely heard the name of Christ spoken. Almost without exception, testimonies began with a statement of belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I was told that there are three heavens. I was also told that God, in the flesh, impregnated Mary.

I did eventually decide to join the church. The day before my baptism, a family member called me and told me about the Mormon belief that God has a wife and lives on another planet (kolob,) and men can become gods. I was so shocked; because none of this was discussed in the lessons-except a passing mention of exaltation-with no clear explanation.

So, I called the Bishop’s house and spoke to one of his daughters. I asked if these beliefs were true, and she admitted that they were. I was really shaken, but I did proceed with baptism. After the baptism, things became very strange. Every time I tried to read the Book of Mormon, I would feel ill–as if I were in a place of darkness.

Then one evening, I heard a knock at my door. It was a friend of mine who drove from another state for a surprise visit. During her stay, I told her that I had been baptized into the Mormon church. She told me she had taken the lessons many years ago. She also told me she found one of Joseph Smith’s early books. Smith actually wrote that he believed Adam was god.

I knew I had to break the connection with the Mormon church as quickly as possible. So, I called the bishop’s wife and told her I did not want any further connection with the Mormon church. She came to my house and asked me why. I told her all the things I had learned about the Mormon beliefs. She acknowledged that they were all true.

When I told her about Joseph Smith’s writings that revealed his belief that Adam was god, she could not deny that either. She said she was familiar with the “Adam/god theory.” I told her I felt that I had been deceived. During the lessons, I was told that the Mormon church is a Christian church–with the same beliefs in God and Jesus as other Christian Churches.

It didn’t end there; members of the church kept calling me and showing up at my door. I kept telling them I was not coming back to the church and to please stop contacting me.

It still didn’t stop. I received phone calls. I received things in the mail-which I marked “return to sender” and left for the Postman. Then, I started receiving things in the mail with no return address-a clear attempt to get me to open the package.

I finally had to write a formal letter to the church–telling them I would consider any further contact harassment—(though I had been harassed, since the moment I told them I was not coming back.)

I was Baptized into the Christian Church again. The whole Mormon experience taught me that blind trust in people and their beliefs can be a dangerous thing.

Now, I look to God. I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to “distinguish between the spirits,” and to reveal God’s Truth to me. I study the Bible. I study the history of the Church. I participate in Christian Forums.

Yet, at the end of the day, that which I hold as Truth, comes from God, and from God alone.

Perhaps you denied these beliefs, because you do not believe these things. So, I make no judgment concerning your faith or what you actually believe. I have no right to judge anyone. I have simply relayed my experience with the Mormon church.

1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV) says, “11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

As I said in my post, I hold no ill feelings toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Mormon Church. However, I did have a very traumatic experience with this church.

May God Reveal His Truth to Us All,
Anna "

Praying for Your Spiritual Protection,
Anna

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

And it still have not been answered.

Nor has my question.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

That is an interesting question.

Still waiting, but I found one answer from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/bible/kjv_eom.htm

“In various lands where The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been established, it uses a translation of the Bible in the local language. In English-speaking areas, the Church uses the King James (or Authorized) Version (KJV), mainly because it was the basic English text used by the Prophet Joseph Smith and because subsequent Church leaders have approved its use. The Church does not claim that the KJV is perfect, but it is currently the preferred English version and was used in the Church’s 1979 edition and later printings of the Bible.”

“After studying many modern English translations, however, President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., a counselor in the First Presidency, said in 1956 that the KJV was “the best version of any yet produced” (Clark, p. 33). For example, he felt that the KJV translators clearly portrayed Jesus as the promised Messiah and as the Son of God, and accepted the gift of prophecy, the reality of miracles, and the uniqueness of the love of Christ; whereas modern translations have tended to promote naturalistic explanations for divine action, preferred the word “sign” instead of “miracle,” and used “love” in place of “charity,” and “appoint” instead of “ordain.” His views have been influential among most Latter-day Saints. Not all alternative translations, of course, suffer from the problems identified by President Clark.”

 

[Javl]

Here’s the problem I have. It’s not that I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit was not present in those meetings. Oddly enough, I do.

It’s that the men who were actually doing the work haven’t given Him the credit. It is THEY who have emphasized scholarship, research, debate, learning and intelligence. It reminds me of Moses and the rock, frankly.

It’s those qualities that you mention that “they” have that is used and guided by the Holy Spirit. He does guide, and “they” do listen, otherwise how can they make the decisions they do? To say otherwise is to fly in the face of reason. It would make no sense.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
You have misunderstood in so many ways. The Book of Mormon includes some of the passages from Isaiah, that great Old Testament prophet, because Isaiah talked so much about the scattering and gathering of Israel (including the gathering in the last days) and the mission of the Savior on earth among men. Those passages were taken from the Brass Plates that the Nephites brought with them to the new world. The Savior also quoted from Malachi when He visited the Nephite/Lamanite righteous people. Of course the prophets in the new world would be excited about the Isaiah passages. Those promises were for their posterity, their descendants, and for all the house of Israel.

The Book of Mormon prophets emphasize that the Bible is the word of God, and that the Book of Mormon testifies and bears witness that the Bible is true. The LDS use the Bible just as much as they use the Book of Mormon. It is true they use the King James Translation. It is not as a “back-up”. It is front and center, just as Ezekiel prophesied that both texts or “sticks”, the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah, would be one in the hands of the gathered house of Israel in the last days.

1. The scattering of Israel ( due to Roman beligerence, primarily ) is the diaspora. As far as Historical records go, which includes the “Antiquties of The Jews” by Livius Josephus, by Pliny, and by others, show the diaspora of the early ages was within the known world of the time only ( by the way, there were no “lost” tribes of Israel ). The new world was unknown, and the belief of the time was that the earth was flat and travel beyond its boundaries would result in “falling” off the earth. The earliest historical record extant of the “new world” dates back only to about 1000 a.d. when the Vikings landed some where on the islands of what is known today as Canada. There isn’t any type of historical record or proof of the Nephinte/Lamanite peoples existance, other than in the Book of Mormon, which leaves many questions unanswered.
2. In my estimation, the Bible needs no other book to testify and bear witness that it is
   true. For all believers, the Bible itself testifies that it is true.
3. If the Bible is “front and center” as you say, then why do you need the Book of Mormon?

PAX DOMINI

 

[ParkerD]

1. The scattering of Israel ( due to Roman beligerence, primarily ) is the diaspora. As far as Historical records go, which includes the “Antiquties of The Jews” by Livius Josephus, by Pliny, and by others, show the diaspora of the early ages was within the known world of the time only ( by the way, there were no “lost” tribes of Israel ). The new world was unknown, and the belief of the time was that the earth was flat and travel beyond its boundaries would result in “falling” off the earth. The earliest historical record extant of the “new world” dates back only to about 1000 a.d. when the Vikings landed some where on the islands of what is known today as Canada. There isn’t any type of historical record or proof of the Nephinte/Lamanite peoples existance, other than in the Book of Mormon, which leaves many questions unanswered.
2. In my estimation, the Bible needs no other book to testify and bear witness that it is
   true. For all believers, the Bible itself testifies that it is true.
3. If the Bible is “front and center” as you say, then why do you need the Book of Mormon?

JAVL,
The scattering of Israel began long before the Romans became involved. Have you heard of the Assyrians and the Babylonians, and the taking captive including taking the tribes of Israel to new lands by those invaders?

The Old Testament is clear that the scattering of Israel would be to all parts of the world, to all nations.

The answer to your final question is found precisely in Ezekiel 37:16-27. Both are needed for the completion of God’s promises to the whole house of Israel and the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant with them and with the Gentiles.

 

[John_Larocque]

I always thought the Adam-God stuff was Brigham Young. He had some other odd views - one of them on Michael the Archangel identified with Adam (or was that Joseph Smith?!?). In defence of the LDS, Brigham Young’s views are not actually taught as doctrine, but he did believe them, which I’m sure can be found a bunch of sites. I don’t recall if any of this is covered in Bruce McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” (some of which isn’t actually Mormon doctrine… but that’s another story)

I had a lonely unemployed friend who received a pair of female missionaries. He promptly joined the LDS church, although it didn’t help him find a wife or a job. (It’s kind of funny when you think about it). He had issues and hangups on a bunch of things, including homosexuality (pro) and evolution (pro) and finally left because what they taught didn’t agree with what he believed. They kept bothering him as well. I inherited a few of his LDS books including a Melchizidech priesthood manual and “Gospel Principles”, although most of my books on the Mormons are gone now.

I never got negative vibes from reading the Book of Mormon. I prayerfully reviewed its claims and found I couldn’t believe that it was what it claimed to be, a historical book. Most of my critiques are more along the lines of “who are the Nephites and Lamanites” today, when you consider that all throughout the BoM, the BoM prophets indicate that this written record is for the descendants of Lehi and Zarahemela as a reminder of their ancient Israelite heritage… but if you ask people in the LDS church today they no longer officially adhere that this tribe or that tribe of North American aboriginals are Lehites. So the book, intended primarily as a Christian history book for Lost Israelites, is received by and large by non-Israelite Gentiles. It’s weird when you think about it.

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
The scattering of Israel began long before the Romans became involved. Have you heard of the Assyrians and the Babylonians, and the taking captive including taking the tribes of Israel to new lands by those invaders?

The Old Testament is clear that the scattering of Israel would be to all parts of the world, to all nations.

The answer to your final question is found precisely in Ezekiel 37:16-27. Both are needed for the completion of God’s promises to the whole house of Israel and the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant with them and with the Gentiles.

Yes I know of the Assyrians and Babylonians, but those were only a portion of Israel. The complete diaspora was under the Romans since the “nation was destroyed”. Read the Antiquites and the Wars of the Jews by the historian Flavius Josephus. He fought the Romans in Israels last days. As for the scattering, it was only to the nations of the ** known world**. Nothing was known or imagined by the peoples of those days beyond the
“great seas”. As I said, the belief was that earth was flat and if you sailed out you would fall off the earth. Besides, there is no evidence of any kind that the Jews left what was then the known world, even among the Jews of today ( and they should know, for there is nothing in their writings ).

As for Ezekiel 37:16-27, that pertains strictly to the nation Israel. Todays Jews, Reform,
Conservative , and Orthodox, still await their Messiah to fulfill that prophecy. It does NOT
refer to the Bible and Book of Mormon. The everlasting covenant has been given to all of us by Jesus Christ.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[placido]

It is generally a mistake to assume something is happening when it is not mentioned.

Like for example, if a friend invited you for dinner but did not mention the word “dinner”, then you won’t assume it is dinner. He or she has to mention the word “dinner” for it to be dinner. Is that what you mean?

placido

 

[placido]

The Catholic Church is the witness that the New Testament is true. Without the Catholic Church there would be no New Testament. The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction which has been proven not to be what Joseph Smith claimed it to be.

Quoting the BOM is embarassingly worse than quoting the Da Vinci Code.

placido

 

[why_me]

Quoting the BOM is embarassingly worse than quoting the Da Vinci Code.

placido

Actually this is not exactly true. The book of mormon has much doctrine in it. Now if that book was not tied to Mormonism but to the philosophy of an individual who wrote it to expound on god’s word, it would get more respect and play, especially in the protestant community. It is quite a book, filled with war and doctrine. For example the speech by King Benjamin in the book of mormon is fantastic:

scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/2

scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/3

scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/4

scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/5

The King gave quite a speech to his people. And I can not say that it is not full of wisdom. But who wrote it? is the question of the day.

 

[Stephen168]

Also, ask the Mormons when the last revelation was, or when the last prophecy was.

The last one I’ve heard of was when abortion was declared no longer intrinsically evil. Mormons can now listen to the voices in their head to determine if killing an innocent human is OK. And they think God would actually answer to the affirmative. Another fruit of ‘continuing revelation.’

 

[ParkerD]

Yes I know of the Assyrians and Babylonians, but those were only a portion of Israel. The complete diaspora was under the Romans since the “nation was destroyed”. Read the Antiquites and the Wars of the Jews by the historian Flavius Josephus. He fought the Romans in Israels last days. As for the scattering, it was only to the nations of the ** known world**. Nothing was known or imagined by the peoples of those days beyond the
“great seas”. As I said, the belief was that earth was flat and if you sailed out you would fall off the earth. Besides, there is no evidence of any kind that the Jews left what was then the known world, even among the Jews of today ( and they should know, for there is nothing in their writings ).

As for Ezekiel 37:16-27, that pertains strictly to the nation Israel. Todays Jews, Reform,
Conservative , and Orthodox, still await their Messiah to fulfill that prophecy. It does NOT
refer to the Bible and Book of Mormon. The everlasting covenant has been given to all of us by Jesus Christ.

Shalom Aleichem

Hi, JAVL,
So are you saying that in your mind, God or His prophets only knew about the “known world,” and knew nothing about the “unknown world” that was beyond the land mass connected to the Old World? And that when the Bible says “the Lord shall scatter thee among all people” (Deuteronomy 28:64) and “I will sift the house of Israel among all nations” (Amos 9:9) and “shall be led away captive into all nations” (Luke 21:24) that those passages were not really saying “all”?

And are you saying that when Isaiah prophesied that “the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from … the islands of the sea … and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth” (Isaiah 11:11-12) then those verses don’t really apply?

I suggest you may have more reading to do. Have a good day.

 

[why_me]

The last one I’ve heard of was when abortion was declared no longer intrinsically evil. Mormons can now listen to the voices in their head to determine if killing an innocent human is OK. And they think God would actually answer to the affirmative. Another fruit of ‘continuing revelation.’

This is not exactly true. There are exceptions when abortion is permited but abortion is never encouraged. But in case of possible death of the woman if the baby is born or in the case of rape, it is permited after counseling and discussion with a priesthood leader. But mormons have far less abortions than catholics per capita.

 

[Jerusha]

Quoting the BOM is embarassingly worse than quoting the Da Vinci Code.

placido

I disagree with you. Quoting anti-Mormon sections of the BOM embarrasses Mormons.

 

[ricko]

This is not exactly true. There are exceptions when abortion is permited but abortion is never encouraged. But in case of possible death of the woman if the baby is born or in the case of rape, it is permited after counseling and discussion with a priesthood leader. But mormons have far less abortions than catholics per capita.

So a child conceived in rape is deserving of death by abortion?

My Christian God says that ALL are equal and have a right to life.

 

[Jerusha]

So a child conceived in rape is deserving of death by abortion?

My Christian God says that ALL are equal and have a right to life.

Sure. That child should be punished for the sin of its ancestor.

 

[Javl]

Hi, JAVL,
So are you saying that in your mind, God or His prophets only knew about the “known world,” and knew nothing about the “unknown world” that was beyond the land mass connected to the Old World? And that when the Bible says “the Lord shall scatter thee among all people” (Deuteronomy 28:64) and “I will sift the house of Israel among all nations” (Amos 9:9) and “shall be led away captive into all nations” (Luke 21:24) that those passages were not really saying “all”?

And are you saying that when Isaiah prophesied that “the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from … the islands of the sea … and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth” (Isaiah 11:11-12) then those verses don’t really apply?

I suggest you may have more reading to do. Have a good day.

I suggest that you read and understand without interpreting what you read and mis-
understand. Where does it say that there were other “known” nations in the “New World” other than in those made up in the BOM? The Bible and documents of that age reveal none. And again, you misinterpret Isaiah and read what you want into it.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Stephen168]

The last one I’ve heard of was when abortion was declared no longer intrinsically evil. Mormons can now listen to the voices in their head to determine if killing an innocent human is OK. And they think God would actually answer to the affirmative. Another fruit of ‘continuing revelation.’
why me;5696842:

This is not exactly true.

It is exactly true. The Mormon Church has declared abortion no longer intrinsically evil.

There are exceptions when abortion is permited but abortion is never encouraged. But in case of possible death of the woman if the baby is born or in the case of rape, it is permited after counseling and discussion with a priesthood leader.

If the Mormon Church still believed it to be intrinsically evil, there would be no exceptions.

But mormons have far less abortions than catholics per capita.

I understand you enjoy attacking Catholics to try and justify the irrational teachings of the Mormon Church but; how a person who claims to be Mormon or a person who claims to be Catholic conducts their lives has nothing to do with the Catholic Church’s 2000 year old consistent teaching on abortion and the Mormon Church’s change to justify the taking of most innocent of human life. Another fruit of Mormonism’s fallacious belief in ‘continuing revelation.’

 

[John_Larocque]

Sure. That child should be punished for the sin of its ancestor.

This made me laugh. When I read this out of context, I thought this was an LDS polemic against Augustinian Original Sin. I’ve read way too much of this stuff.

Somewhere on this site is an interview with a Father Bennett who apostasized and returned to the Catholic Faith and he goes over what they teach about abortion versus what is in Gospel Principles. I haven’t followed the LDS that closely the past few years, but apparently he was one of the “star” converts and people still sought him out (after he returned to the RCC) because of his LDS conversion tape. Ah here it is:

catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9609fea2.asp