Help with debating a Mormon

[dianaiad]

What did I bold and highlight in red?

Paul was not in that number, Rebecca. It is not clear that all of the other men who were named ‘apostles’ were of that number, either.

We understand God as the Holy Trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit ARE ONE GOD. The revelations of the Holy Spirit to you and me or anyone else are no less significant than what happened to St. Paul. God gives to each person what they need and what is according to His Desires. I don’t know about you, but God has knocked me on my *** more than once.

…and where, then, is the 'Book of Rebecca?" You are equating two very different things, here.

What did I bold and highlight in red?
The writings of St. Paul are canonized because that is where the Holy Spirit guided Christ’s Church. The same Church that preserved and taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ for centuries before there was a canon. The same Church that has been guided to teach that there is no further public Revelation than the Perfect Word of God.

The same Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit today. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not limited. The Church has approved many people as being true prophets, including more than a few Popes. All you have to do is read one of the most controversial teachings of the Church, Humanae Vitae, to find an example of prophecy in the Catholic Church in modern times.

Modern prophecies do not add or remove anything from the Perfect Word of God. They bring us to Him, in the circumstances of our place and time, as it has been since Pentecost.

You did not answer, what is it that you think you have to add to the Perfect Word of God, revealed in Jesus Christ?

The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price; all are witnesses to Him, as are the various books of the NT. You do not, after all, through the Pauline letters out because you already had the gospels and Acts, do you?

You don’t throw Revelation out because you have Peter’s letters? It is written that ALL scripture is good to study…we simply recognize that scripture didn’t stop being written less than a hundred years after Christ died, as you believe it did.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

One would do well to understand the role of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture here.

 

[SimonArizona]

Mat 7:24-25 "… a wise man who built his house on a rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

“Blessed are you Simon…and I tell you, you are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church.”-Matthew 16:18

Christ built his house upon a Rock, so that when the tempest beat against her she would never be overcome.

 

[dianaiad]

One would do well to understand the role of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture here.

Simple, straightforward question:

Is your Sacred Tradition considered 'scripture?"

that is, are the writings of ‘Sacred Tradition’ easily identifiable, readily quotable, and held to the same level of honor and respect…you know, scripture?

Not ‘almost as good as,’ or even 'the same as, ’ but…actual scripture?

If not, what is the difference? What makes scripture, scripture, and ‘sacred tradition’ NOT scripture? Where is each one in the hierarchy?

 

[dianaiad]

Mat 7:24-25 "… a wise man who built his house on a rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

“Blessed are you Simon…and I tell you, you are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church.”-Matthew 16:18

Christ built his house upon a Rock, so that when the tempest beat against her she would never be overcome.

That is a lovely statement of faith. It really is…but doesn’t answer the question at hand.

 

[SimonArizona]

Simple, straightforward question:

Is your Sacred Tradition considered 'scripture?"

that is, are the writings of ‘Sacred Tradition’ easily identifiable, readily quotable, and held to the same level of honor and respect…you know, scripture?

Not ‘almost as good as,’ or even 'the same as, ’ but…actual scripture?

If not, what is the difference? What makes scripture, scripture, and ‘sacred tradition’ NOT scripture? Where is each one in the hierarchy?

Tradition is how scripture is interpreted. Sacred tradition is handed down from generation to generation. We can learn a lot about what scripture teaches by following the tradition of how the early Catholics understood it to mean. St. Paul said “follow the traditions we have taught you by word or by letter…have no part with the man who does not follow these traditions.” Tradition and scripture are thence inserparable. If you throw out tradtion you get the protestant fissiparousness, or “falling into pieces.”

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Simple, straightforward question:

Is your Sacred Tradition considered 'scripture?"

that is, are the writings of ‘Sacred Tradition’ easily identifiable, readily quotable, and held to the same level of honor and respect…you know, scripture?

Not ‘almost as good as,’ or even 'the same as, ’ but…actual scripture?

If not, what is the difference? What makes scripture, scripture, and ‘sacred tradition’ NOT scripture? Where is each one in the hierarchy?

Who said that Sacred Tradition is written?

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

96 What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory.

97 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God” (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.

98 “The Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes” (DV 8 § 1).

99 Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith, the People of God as a whole never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine Revelation.

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

catholicplanet.com/TSM/insights-tradition.htm
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

 

[why_me]

Mat 7:24-25 "… a wise man who built his house on a rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

“Blessed are you Simon…and I tell you, you are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church.”-Matthew 16:18

Christ built his house upon a Rock, so that when the tempest beat against her she would never be overcome.

A human being can not be a rock but he can be a rock for revelation and for mormons, I believe, that the lds interpret that verse to mean revelation. Since Christ will speak through Simon, Simon will become the rock that Christ will build his church on. And when the devil unleashes temptest in an attempt to destroy Christ’s church, Christ will guide his Church by revelation.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Simple, straightforward question:

Is your Sacred Tradition considered 'scripture?"

that is, are the writings of ‘Sacred Tradition’ easily identifiable, readily quotable, and held to the same level of honor and respect…you know, scripture?

Not ‘almost as good as,’ or even 'the same as, ’ but…actual scripture?

If not, what is the difference? What makes scripture, scripture, and ‘sacred tradition’ NOT scripture? Where is each one in the hierarchy?

See the catechism excerpts above. Sacred Tradition is equal to Scripture. Together they make up the Word of God, the Deposit of Faith. Scripture is written down. Sacred Tradition is not. Scripture came from Sacred Tradition.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

A human being can not be a rock but he can be a rock for revelation and for mormons, I believe, that the lds interpret that verse to mean revelation. Since Christ will speak through Simon, Simon will become the rock that Christ will build his church on. And when the devil unleashes temptest in an attempt to destroy Christ’s church, Christ will guide his Church by revelation.

Yes according to Mormons, the rock is revelation, and not Peter. According to Protestants, the rock is Peter’s profession of faith.

 

[why_me]

Tradition is how scripture is interpreted. Sacred tradition is handed down from generation to generation. We can learn a lot about what scripture teaches by following the tradition of how the early Catholics understood it to mean. St. Paul said “follow the traditions we have taught you by word or by letter…have no part with the man who does not follow these traditions.” Tradition and scripture are thence inserparable. If you throw out tradtion you get the protestant fissiparousness, or “falling into pieces.”

Saint Paul never called himself Catholic. In fact, the bible never mentions the Catholic Church. And I think that the early Christians would not call themselves Catholic. Now maybe they called themselves the Church of Christ or The Church of Jesus Christ, but not the Catholic Church. They did refer themselves to be saints.

Tradition matters very little if that tradition is false. One must decide if a tradition is false or true.

 

[dianaiad]

Tradition is how scripture is interpreted. Sacred tradition is handed down from generation to generation. We can learn a lot about what scripture teaches by following the tradition of how the early Catholics understood it to mean. St. Paul said “follow the traditions we have taught you by word or by letter…have no part with the man who does not follow these traditions.” Tradition and scripture are thence inserparable. If you throw out tradtion you get the protestant fissiparousness, or “falling into pieces.”

OK, so Tradition is the way your church has interpreted scripture, but it isn’t scripture in and of itself. Tradition makes no claim to divine revelation for itself…(or it would BE scripture and accepted as such.) It is…commentary. Incredibly important commentary, but only commentary, non-the less.

Not scripture.

So.

Why not scripture? What happened?

 

[why_me]

I’m having a friendly debate with some Mormon friends and the argument they kind of have me stumped on is their concept of continuing revelation. Obviously, as Catholics, we believe that everything we need for salvation has been revealed by the Deposit of Faith and that we don’t need ongoing revelation.

I mention the fact that Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the church and they say that means the Holy Spirit would continue to provide revelation to the church and the fact that the Catholic church relies on councils to determine things proves that we don’t have the spirit revealing the truth to us.

Let me give you some advice. It is much better not to debate religion since it is an endless debate. Much better to just share a picnic and eat hot dogs and appreciate one another’s difference or celebrate your oneness with Christ. Devout mormons and devout catholics have at least one thing in common: they are good people.

 

[SimonArizona]

A human being can not be a rock but he can be a rock for revelation and for mormons, I believe, that the lds interpret that verse to mean revelation. Since Christ will speak through Simon, Simon will become the rock that Christ will build his church on. And when the devil unleashes temptest in an attempt to destroy Christ’s church, Christ will guide his Church by revelation.

A human being can possess the qualities of a rock; stern, unshakable. Christ is also called a rock. This particular verse is not saying Christ will speak through Simon. This verse says that Christ is naming Simon the rock i.e. the unshakable ground that he will build his Church upon. He then says in the same breath that it wont be prevailed against. So the Church of Jesus Christ is that which is built upon Rock. Christ will guide his Church by the Pillar of Truth. In the old test. the exodus israelites were led by the pillar of fire. The Bible says that the Church is the Pillar and ground of the Truth.

 

[dianaiad]

Who said that Sacred Tradition is written?

It is written. Else how would you know what it is?

catholicplanet.com/TSM/insights-tradition.htm
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Saint Paul never called himself Catholic. In fact, the bible never mentions the Catholic Church. And I think that the early Christians would not call themselves Catholic. Now maybe they called themselves the Church of Christ or The Church of Jesus Christ, but not the Catholic Church. They did refer themselves to be saints.

Tradition matters very little if that tradition is false. One must decide if a tradition is false or true.

What’s your point? Orthodox believe themselves to be the true Church, and we don’t see Paul or anyone else calling themselves Orthodox. What does that have to do with anything? Ignatius of Antioch used the word Catholic to designate the Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome in 105-106 AD.

Catholics also call themselves saints. We believe in something called the Communion of Saints. That includes all saints on earth, in Purgatory, and in Heaven. We also canonize saints that we believe are examples for all Christians worldwide to know about and see how Christian lives are lived out.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

It is written. Else how would you know what it is?

catholicplanet.com/TSM/insights-tradition.htm
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

Read the Catechism excerpts as well as those articles to understand what Sacred Tradition is.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

OK, so Tradition is the way your church has interpreted scripture, but it isn’t scripture in and of itself. Tradition makes no claim to divine revelation for itself…(or it would BE scripture and accepted as such.) It is…commentary. Incredibly important commentary, but only commentary, non-the less.

Not scripture.

So.

Why not scripture? What happened?

Tradition is not just commentary on Scripture. Please read the links and information I provided.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

what other scriptures do we need? What is Scripture?

 

[why_me]

A human being can possess the qualities of a rock; stern, unshakable. Christ is also called a rock. This particular verse is not saying Christ will speak through Simon. This verse says that Christ is naming Simon the rock i.e. the unshakable ground that he will build his Church upon. He then says in the same breath that it wont be prevailed against. So the Church of Jesus Christ is that which is built upon Rock. Christ will guide his Church by the Pillar of Truth. In the old test. the exodus israelites were led by the pillar of fire. The Bible says that the Church is the Pillar and ground of the Truth.

It is all a matter of interpretation. And that is the point. Some say this and some say that. But it certainly can be interpreted as Christ building his rock upon Peter because Peter will receive revelation to guide his church. And one can say the same about Paul. Paul had the rock of revelation and with that rock he could not fail.