Help with debating a Mormon

[dianaiad]

Using Dianaiad statement on scripture, I would think Mormon’s don’t have scripture

.
I will assume she was just being irrational in trying to win an argument and Mormons believe they do have scripture. I also would like to know how Mormons determine what scripture is; or is anything scripture?

Rather rude change in my own post noted. Didn’t someone just get scolded for doing that?

We believe that something is scripture if it is written by a prophet (and yes, that IS circular, since getting revelation and writing that revelation down is what makes you a prophet…). Perhaps another way to put that is…if it is revelation given by God to someone for the instruction of all, then it is scripture—whether that is recognized by anybody else or not.

Our job, as readers and believers, is not to DECLARE something to be scripture (as it seems the Catholics do/have done) but to recognize it when we see it. Modern scripture becomes part of the canonized works of scripture only when the prophet, his counselors and the twelve apostles have all prayed and received independent confirmation from God that it is indeed scripture.

Let me repeat that: in order to make the canon, that which is scripture must be confirmed as such to the prophet, his counselors and the twelve by God, through additional revelation directly to them, confirming the truth of the writing under discussion.

In other words, they do not determine what scripture is. They ask God whether it is, and God confirms or denies it.

We can, individually, do the same thing. That’s what Moroni 10:4-5 is all about, y’know…those verses at the end of the Book of Mormon which give the reader the challenge:
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Read it,
think about it (well, ‘ponder’ means more than simply ‘think…’ it means to do some major considering)
Then pray about it, having faith…not in the Book of Mormon or the missionaries, but in Jesus Christ, that if you ask Him a question, He will answer it.

That’s how you know what scripture is. Confirmation from the source of it.

 

[dianaiad]

Well, according to dianad’s post around #18 or so, nothing after Revelation can be called scripture, “real” scripture. But that would mean that all of the BOM, D&C and Pearl of Great Price wouldn’t be considered scripture. Hmmmmm.

How on earth do you figure that?

It would interest me to know where you got that idea.

 

[aquabatix]

I got that ides from you yourself. In your talk of what revelation is, you talked in one way of Paul being after Christ and his writings being admitted (which his writings were some of the earliest of all the NT), and later saying that after Revelation, there is NO “real” scripture. If this mode of thinking is correct, then all writings after could not be considered scripture. This would exclude the BOM and all associated writings. (This is all in your post in this forum #17). (Forgive me for not quoting or pasting as I am doing this from my phone) Could you explain what you meant?

Also, I have trouble with the passage from Moroni that you quoted above. The way it tells you to pray (and ponder) what you have read implies that if you do not have a sincere enough heart of pray faithfully enough, then you won’t get an answer. So, either 1. It is true or 2. You weren’t praying good enough. This doesn’t leave room for the alternative.

 

[dianaiad]

I got that ides from you yourself. In your talk of what revelation is, you talked in one way of Paul being after Christ and his writings being admitted (which his writings were some of the earliest of all the NT), and later saying that after Revelation, there is NO “real” scripture.

Excuse me, but I said no such thing. I may have noted that the CATHOLICS don’t think that there was any scripture after that which is canonized in the NT, but that’s not the same thing as ME declaring that there wasn’t.

If this mode of thinking is correct, then all writings after could not be considered scripture. This would exclude the BOM and all associated writings. (This is all in your post in this forum #17). (Forgive me for not quoting or pasting as I am doing this from my phone) Could you explain what you meant?

OK, I see where you are getting that…yes. I did claim that no scripture was written after the apostles died…or after the writings accepted in the NT were penned (however you want to put that; it amounts to the same thing.) …and indeed, there was not, in the old world. We claim (I’m a Mormon, remember) that this wasn’t because God stopped sending it so much as that the church stopped receiving it: the great apostasy happened. Even you guys claim that there was no more prophecy/revelation/scripture written after that time…I was simply agreeing with you. The difference is in why we think that is so. You believe that it wasn’t needed any more, and I believe that it’s because the church went off the rails–and eventually had to be restored. When it was, that restoration made prophets. (Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet until after God appeared to him, in other words.) The writing down of such revelations is scripture.

Therefore, even though you guys didn’t get any more, it doesn’t mean that nobody else did, or that we can’t get any now.

Also, I have trouble with the passage from Moroni that you quoted above. The way it tells you to pray (and ponder) what you have read implies that if you do not have a sincere enough heart of pray faithfully enough, then you won’t get an answer. So, either 1. It is true or 2. You weren’t praying good enough. This doesn’t leave room for the alternative.

Well, given that the writers of the book (having actually written it) were quite aware that it was ‘true,’ it would have been a tad suspicious of THEM to have provided the alternative you seek, would it not? It would indicate that THEY didn’t have faith in their own experiences.

It would be a bit like the guy who tells the traveler to ask the bridge builders if they think the bridge they built was safe to cross, assuring him (the traveler) that if he does, he’ll get a positive answer.

If he were not sure of that, he wouldn’t be referring the travelers to the bridge builders for confirmaion…

And if the writers of the Book of Mormon (or any scripture, for that matter) were not sure of the result of any petition to God, then they wouldn’t be referring them to Him.

It is, after all, a recommendation to pray for confirmation, not an invitation to vote.

 

[aquabatix]

I’m sure the author thought it to be true (or we have a different serious problem), but the problem I have is that it conditions the way you must ask if it is true. If the author felt that it was that unshakable true, then no matter how you ask, you should get an answer.

That would be like (in your analogy) finding out if the bridge was safe or not only if you asked nice enough. If you didn’t say please in the right way, you might not get your answer.

 

[dianaiad]

I’m sure the author thought it to be true (or we have a different serious problem), but the problem I have is that it conditions the way you must ask if it is true. If the author felt that it was that unshakable true, then no matter how you ask, you should get an answer.

That would be like (in your analogy) finding out if the bridge was safe or not only if you asked nice enough. If you didn’t say please in the right way, you might not get your answer.

Not that.

But it would help if, in asking someone for an answer, you believed that the “someone” you ask is actually real…or at least, if real, that s/he would answer a question s/he himself (or herself) told you to ask.

In religion faith is pretty much everything; God very seldom knocks people on the head who are utterly unwilling to believe things…and people can be unwilling to believe just about anything they don’t want to.

Hence, for instance, the Flat Earth Society (whose beginnings, unfortunately, were in the very city from which I post…)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Which is actually not so bad at all. It is quite amazing that a farm boy could write the book of mormon, book of abraham, book of moses and add to some verses in the bible. I find it absolutely amazing if he did do it. And we need to remember that he was murdered at the tender age of 38. Quite an accomplishment to write all that and lead a church that was persecuted and chased around a few states.

But could he have done it without inspiration?

Smith is not the only person to ever have lived fast and died young. This fact is not an indication of religious truth.

 

[aquabatix]

Quote:

But it would help if, in asking someone for an answer, you believed that the “someone” you ask is actually real…or at least, if real, that s/he would answer a question s/he himself (or herself) told you to ask.

In religion faith is pretty much everything; God very seldom knocks people on the head who are utterly unwilling to believe things…and people can be unwilling to believe just about anything they don’t want to.

Hence, for instance, the Flat Earth Society (whose beginnings, unfortunately, were in the very city from which I post…)

Well yes, it would help if the person thought who they were praying to were real. But then again, if they did not believe in God, who are they praying to? I would hope the precursor to praying would be a rudimentary belief in God.

Also, yes people can be unwilling to believe anything they don’t want to believe, but people do a good job of believing anything they want to believe to be true as well. This is why God has to give the yes OR no.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well yes, it would help if the person thought who they were praying to were real. But then again, if they did not believe in God, who are they praying to? I would hope the precursor to praying would be a rudimentary belief in God.

Also, yes people can be unwilling to believe anything they don’t want to believe, but people do a good job of believing anything they want to believe to be true as well. This is why God has to give the yes OR no.

In my own personal experience, coming from atheism, some dingdong Catholic kept bugging me to pray. It was more than ridiculous, believe me. I had no rudimentary belief in God. I believed I was talking to the paint on the walls, or the molecules in the air.

It is not our faith that makes God real. It is the Reality of God that makes our Faith real. Faith is indeed a grace, a gift from God, I call it a miracle.

 

[dianaiad]

diana:

But it would help if, in asking someone for an answer, you believed that the “someone” you ask is actually real…or at least, if real, that s/he would answer a question s/he himself (or herself) told you to ask.

In religion faith is pretty much everything; God very seldom knocks people on the head who are utterly unwilling to believe things…and people can be unwilling to believe just about anything they don’t want to.

Hence, for instance, the Flat Earth Society (whose beginnings, unfortunately, were in the very city from which I post…)

Well yes, it would help if the person thought who they were praying to were real. But then again, if they did not believe in God, who are they praying to? I would hope the precursor to praying would be a rudimentary belief in God.

Well, sometimes all that is required is a willingness to believe that IF there is a God, THEN He would be willing to keep the promise that He, evidently, made. In other words, a mind that is even the tiniest bit open…

Also, yes people can be unwilling to believe anything they don’t want to believe, but people do a good job of believing anything they want to believe to be true as well. This is why God has to give the yes OR no.

I’m with you on that one.

Hence the part about asking Him stuff.

 

[deni_g2000]

Well, to help to answer this question, I looked into the Mormon church as there was one near where I lived so purely out of curiousity I went into the church to find out more.

(Note I went in to find out more only!!! I never became Mormon, was never baptised into the church, I just wanted to try find out their beliefs and if any of what they claimed was true)

So the story goes…

One day two missionaries (young adults 18 years old) arrived at my house. They were and are really nice people and want to live a good and proper life like Catholics. Give them credit for that.

But what I couldn’t understand was they could not answer the questions about the Golden Plates that is very signifcant in the LDS religion. Read on and I will explain in brief…

LDS history goes as follows:

Mormonism was set up by Joesph Smith in around 1824 ish or so. He claims he got a revelation from God and an angel Moroni about setting up the TRUE Church of Christ via Golden Plates he received from him which he translated into the Book of Mormon.

So the beginnings of LDS church!!!

BTW: The LDS church went through various names before finally being called The Church of Latter Day Saints as we know it today.(minor point)

Their beliefs:

Anyhow in LDS they believe God is three fold ie 3 persons God the father, Son and Holy Ghost, when there is only one!!!.

That there are various heavens you go to depending how good you’ve been on earth.

Eternal marriages (yet there are divorces amongst their flock!!!). Baptism for the dead!!!

And so anyhow as the story goes… Joseph Smith through receiving the Golden Plates in his vision from the “Angel” Moroni was then told to set up the true Church of Christ ie LDS (BTW there has never been proof that the Golden Plates were found or even existed!!).

So from these Golden Plates Smith wrote The “Companion” to the bible (as Mormons call it) called the Book of Mormon. LDS people say its a companion but trust me in their Sunday services and bible meetings they only ever refer to the Book of Mormon and that God travelled to the Americas etc etc not just “hung around the Israel area” if you get me.

To the Mormons the Book of Mormon is a companion to the bible but to me it’s a slimmed down copy with similar made up stories inside, and it has Joesph Smith’s interpretation and twist to it (with different names and locations of incidences in the Americas at the time of God)!!!

Don’t get me wrong LDS people are strong believers of God in general and living a righteous life the way God would want us to live and they dress modesty etc etc, which I really respect them for but …

they disregard the body and blood of Christ. They use water instead when clearly in the bible wine is representative of the blood of Christ.

Going back to my point on Joesph Smith’s vision from the angel Moroni and giving him Golden plates. No evidence whatsoever since 1820 odd has it been proven the Golden plates ever ever existed on the Mountain Palmyra outside New York. I even asked the LDS High Bishop where are the Golden Plates held and he couldn’t answer the question. He told me to pray about it but that doesn’t answer a simple question. If you give me evidence I will believe no more than the next man beside me right?

The LDS people are nice people but its to get you in the door of the “church” they are nice people. If you say you don’t want to become LDS they will not be your friend anymore. You won’t get invited by the “clubs” to go to the cinema with them. They will reject you. Trust me I’m telling you the truth here. I tried it all to get their answers to the true word of God.

Get this…You are even supposed to give 10% of your salary each month to the Church. I didn’t know God was supposed to charge you to view his house. If that’s the case then he is a very rich guy and laughing all the way to the bank!!! The Qurom of 12 ie 12 apostles of the LDS church are millionaries ( a form of highest ranking bishops in the church of LDS). I wonder how!!! Pocketing all the money from the congregation that can’t see there is only one God that ever existed nor see the true light of God. I think!!! Again a scam!!

If LDS people didn’t have the Book of Mormon and concentrated more on Christ alone I would really have the highest, highest respect for these people as they are very religious in believing in God or so they say and they could be considered Christians but then they keep refering to the Book of Mormon, why I ask??? It’s a made up story!!! I could start my own version tomorrow.See how much ££££ I’d make and followers I’d get??? hhMMMmm.

Having gone along to their Sunday services for almost a year to figure it all out I’m still baffled by their beliefs. Their main focus is always to talk about JS and the book of Mormon. So yeah it’s a brain washing cult continued on by JS’s succedors by the President of the Church and his 12 “apostles” that they have today all reverting back to a guy who lived almost 200 years ago writing his version of God’s truth, ie a made up story, As I’ve already pointed out no physical proof or evidence has ever been found on the Golden plates that JS received form the angel Moroni!!!

So if you are reading this and you are LDS please give me the answers to these questions?

Catholisism to me is the one true and only religion!!! Plenty of evidence to back it up.

Dee:thumbsup:

PS: Maybe the Pope should stand at the front door of the Vatican and charge us all. Nah he is true a man of God he’s wouldn’t dream of doing this!!! If LDS people brought some of their values of living a good honest life into the Catholic religion I’m sure we would all welcome them with open arms!!!

 

[Stephen168]

Our job, as readers and believers, is not to DECLARE something to be scripture (as it seems the Catholics do/have done)…

Mormons don’t declared something scripture like Catholics do.

Modern scripture becomes part of the canonized works of scripture only when the prophet, his counselors and the twelve apostles have all prayed and received independent confirmation from God that it is indeed scripture.

Mormons declare something scripture like Mormons do.

Ofcourse.

 

[dianaiad]

Well, to help to answer this question, I looked into the Mormon church as there was one near where I lived so purely out of curiousity I went into the church to find out more.

(Note I went in to find out more only!!! I never became Mormon, was never baptised into the church, I just wanted to try find out their beliefs and if any of what they claimed was true)

So the story goes…

One day two missionaries (young adults 18 years old) arrived at my house. They were and are really nice people and want to live a good and proper life like Catholics. Give them credit for that.

But what I couldn’t understand was they could not answer the questions about the Golden Plates that is very signifcant in the LDS religion. Read on and I will explain in brief…

LDS history goes as follows:

Mormonism was set up by Joesph Smith in around 1824 ish or so. He claims he got a revelation from God and an angel Moroni about setting up the TRUE Church of Christ via Golden Plates he received from him which he translated into the Book of Mormon.

So the beginnings of LDS church!!!

BTW: The LDS church went through various names before finally being called The Church of Latter Day Saints as we know it today.(minor point)

Actually, that’s “the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” and has been since April 26, 1838. Before that, the names REALLY went through a lot of change; let’s see…Oh, “The church of Christ,” “The church of God,” “The church of the latter-day saints” (that one felt wrong and didn’t last very long at all…) then there was this revelation from God, Who evidently got tired of the fumbling.

We got told that the church would be CALLED “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” because it is the church of Jesus Christ, and right now it’s the ‘latter-days,’ and so…

But…now to the fun part…where you are going to tell me what I really believe…

Their beliefs:

Anyhow in LDS they believe God is three fold ie 3 persons God the father, Son and Holy Ghost, when there is only one!!!.

I see. Modalist, are you?

That there are various heavens you go to depending how good you’ve been on earth.

Eternal marriages (yet there are divorces amongst their flock!!!). Baptism for the dead!!!

Oh, hold the presses!

And so anyhow as the story goes… Joseph Smith through receiving the Golden Plates in his vision from the “Angel” Moroni was then told to set up the true Church of Christ ie LDS (BTW there has never been proof that the Golden Plates were found or even existed!!).

More proof of them than there is of the tablets upon which the Ten Commandments were written.

So from these Golden Plates Smith wrote The “Companion” to the bible (as Mormons call it) called the Book of Mormon. LDS people say its a companion but trust me in their Sunday services and bible meetings they only ever refer to the Book of Mormon and that God travelled to the Americas etc etc not just “hung around the Israel area” if you get me.

And you got all that from…HOW many times did you attend our services?

You do realize that it’s not exactly a secret that we believe that Christ came to the Americas after His resurrection and preached to the people here. You aren’t exactly telling anybody anything shockingly new.

As to trusting you about what we talk about in our meetings? Here’s the thing, sir; I’ve been attending such meetings for 60 years–have spoken in many of them, was a missionary myself, and am quite familiar with what we talk about in them. Yes, we use the Book of Mormon. AND the Doctrine and Covenants, AND the Pearl of Great Price, AND the Bible.

And you are not exactly a trustworthy source of information about what we ordinarily talk about in church.

To the Mormons the Book of Mormon is a companion to the bible but to me it’s a slimmed down copy with similar made up stories inside, and it has Joesph Smith’s interpretation and twist to it (with different names and locations of incidences in the Americas at the time of God)!!!

LOVE the exclamation points. It doesn’t surprise me that your opinion is what it is. Consider it noted.

And yes, I’m running in extreme sarcasm mode here. I need to be a lot more patient with foolishness.

continued on next post

 

[dianaiad]

continued from previous post:

Don’t get me wrong LDS people are strong believers of God in general and living a righteous life the way God would want us to live and they dress modesty etc etc, which I really respect them for but …

How very nice of you.

they disregard the body and blood of Christ. They use water instead when clearly in the bible wine is representative of the blood of Christ.

Going back to my point on Joesph Smith’s vision from the angel Moroni and giving him Golden plates. No evidence whatsoever since 1820 odd has it been proven the Golden plates ever ever existed on the Mountain Palmyra outside New York. I even asked the LDS High Bishop

high Bishop?

where are the Golden Plates held and he couldn’t answer the question. He told me to pray about it but that doesn’t answer a simple question. If you give me evidence I will believe no more than the next man beside me right?

Ok, you show me the evidence of where the tablets of the ten commandments are, along with the ark of the covenant. Show me the evidence of the miracle of the loaves and fishes. Show me the water marks are where the Red Sea parted. Show me the evidence of the resurrection. Show me the evidence of the salt sculpture of Lot’s wife.

The LDS people are nice people but its to get you in the door of the “church” they are nice people. If you say you don’t want to become LDS they will not be your friend anymore. You won’t get invited by the “clubs” to go to the cinema with them. They will reject you. Trust me I’m telling you the truth here. I tried it all to get their answers to the true word of God.

In other words, you were playing them, pretending to be one thing when you were really attempting to get something else?

Get this…You are even supposed to give 10% of your salary each month to the Church.

Yes. That’s called “tithing.” It’s mentioned in the bible. Even Jesus talked about it to the Pharisees. It is recommended to Catholics, as well.

I didn’t know God was supposed to charge you to view his house. If that’s the case then he is a very rich guy and laughing all the way to the bank!!! The Qurom of 12 ie 12 apostles of the LDS church are millionaries ( a form of highest ranking bishops in the church of LDS).

Some of them are…and they earned that money by themselves, through their own businesses. Nobody gets rich working for the church. In fact, the clergy isn’t paid in the church, at all, until the ‘general authority’ level is reached, and even then it’s a ‘stipend,’ that many of them don’t take. You are showing quite a level of basic ignorance about the church and the way it works.

I wonder how!!! Pocketing all the money from the congregation that can’t see there is only one God that ever existed nor see the true light of God. I think!!! Again a scam!!

Well, let’s see: Henry Eyering: noted physicist and educator.
Deiter Uchtdorf…fighter pilot and chief pilot for Lufthansa
Boyd K Packer…teacher all his life.
Jeffrey Holland…teacher; BYU religious center.
M. Russell Ballard…car salesman (he sold Edsels…) and businessman.
Russell Nelson; heart surgeon.
David Bednar: college professor
Dallin Oaks: lawyer, law professor…clerk for Justice Earl Warren, Dean of BYU
Quenton Cook: lawyer
D.Todd Christopherson: lawyer, helped Judge Sirica oversee Watergate trials.
L. Tom Perry; business man
Richard G Scott: nuclear energy scientist
Robert D. Hales: businessman
Neil Anderson: advertising exec, vp of Morton Health Systems.

If they are millionaires (and actually, few of them are…) they are millionaires because they were good lawyers, doctors, scientists, teachers and businessmen, not because they skimmed tithing funds.

Your accusation here is as uniformed as it is insulting.

If LDS people didn’t have the Book of Mormon and concentrated more on Christ alone I would really have the highest, highest respect for these people as they are very religious in believing in God or so they say and they could be considered Christians but then they keep refering to the Book of Mormon, why I ask??? It’s a made up story!!! I could start my own version tomorrow.See how much ££££ I’d make and followers I’d get??? hhMMMmm.

Having gone along to their Sunday services for almost a year to figure it all out I’m still baffled by their beliefs. Their main focus is always to talk about JS and the book of Mormon. So yeah it’s a brain washing cult continued on by JS’s succedors by the President of the Church and his 12 “apostles” that they have today all reverting back to a guy who lived almost 200 years ago writing his version of God’s truth, ie a made up story, As I’ve already pointed out no physical proof or evidence has ever been found on the Golden plates that JS received form the angel Moroni!!!

So if you are reading this and you are LDS please give me the answers to these questions?

You haven’t actually asked any questions, y’know. You’ve just made rather uninformed accusations. Those were addressed.

Catholisism to me is the one true and only religion!!! Plenty of evidence to back it up.

like, for instance…?

PS: Maybe the Pope should stand at the front door of the Vatican and charge us all. Nah he is true a man of God he’s wouldn’t dream of doing this!!! If LDS people brought some of their values of living a good honest life into the Catholic religion I’m sure we would all welcome them with open arms!!!

Now if you wouldn’t mind showing us where the bishop of a ward stands in front of the chapel charging admission…??

 

[dianaiad]

Mormons don’t declared something scripture like Catholics do.
Mormons declare something scripture like Mormons do.

Ofcourse.

Pay attention.

Catholics have declared that there is no more official revelation that results in scripture. There is nothing in Sacred Tradition that mentions direct revelation in confirming scripture. Lots of scholarship and study, yes…but nothing in there from direct answer to direct prayer–at least, nothing that I’ve read. I would like to see something that contradicts that, of course.

Mormons do not declare scripture. They have scripture confirmed TO them. There is quite a difference.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Pay attention.

There is nothing in Sacred Tradition that mentions direct revelation in confirming scripture.

Can you expand on this? What did you use/read to come to this conclusion about “Sacred Tradition”?

 

[why_me]

Smith is not the only person to ever have lived fast and died young. This fact is not an indication of religious truth.

I can’t say that he lived fast. He was too busy for fast living. Joseph Smith was perhaps America’s greatest religious thinker. And in fact, he gave christianity new meaning. Lets look at it as if it were all a fraud. First, he writes a book that is filled with religious doctrine at a young age. From where came all his doctrinal training to write such a book? Then he goes about organizing a church complete with angelic visitations from the main apostles and John the baptist. People read the book of mormon and are converted by what is inside that book. Suddenly the church begins to attract more and more members.

He then receives revelation for the church and the church grows and prospers, not financially but in members. Then, we have the Pearl of Great Price, the JST etc. All written by him without formal religious training and education. Temples are built with baptisms for the dead and where endowments are performed all thought up by JS: New cities are organized, he runs for president on a good platform, spends time in prisons on trumped up charges and eventually is murdered by a mob. All by the age of 38.

Plus, he has witnesses to the book of mormon who saw the plates touched them and who sign a testimony about what they saw. Who made the prop? So now we have a man with an artistic talent for engraving on metal.

All this seems unbelievable for a man to do at that time in American history. And still we will have volumes of Joseph Smith Papers that will now be published. He was an amazing man.

And for most of time the mormons were moving from place to place having been forced out of towns and communities. New Housing had to be built and organized. And Joseph Smith also had to house his own family. But…he did it.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Let me repeat that: in order to make the canon, that which is scripture must be confirmed as such to the prophet, his counselors and the twelve by God, through additional revelation directly to them, confirming the truth of the writing under discussion.

I was going to bring this up, so thanks for taking the initiative Diana. Now I must ask, how exactly do the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve demonstrate that they’ve indeed reached a revelatory consensus about scripture?

Dare I make the assumption that they sustain their revelations in a similar manner as Latter-day Saints sustain members to their callings? Is this not a vote, the same kind of vote for which you earlier in a polite tone castigated the Catholic/Orthodox Ecumenical Councils?

I don’t think the question here should be how scripture is canonized. I do think Catholics and Mormons canonize scripture in a similar manner, with the only substantial variables being the time of canonization, fluidity of canonization (i.e. Mormons see nothing wrong with removing once canonized parts of LDS scripture), and sheer volume of people involved in the canonization process (i.e. The Bible wasn’t canonized at one, set, finite time, rather it was canonized and reaffirmed over countless centuries by various councils and episcopal synods in various parts of Europe whereas the Book of Mormon was canonized instantaneously via Smith and the D&C is perpetually added to).

I think the real question here, at least with respect to the nature of the OP, should be “is there any role for progressive revelation?” As has been pointed out, we Catholics believe in continuing revelation. The difference between our belief in modern revelation and the LDS belief in their modern revelation is that our revelation complements what is already revealed. We Catholics do not believe in innovative or novel revelation.

I really do think this here lies the crux of the matter. Do let me know what you think.

 

[dianaiad]

Can you expand on this? What did you use/read to come to this conclusion about “Sacred Tradition”?

It means that in the writings I have read, nor in what others have told me about the process of canonization, I have not seen any mention of direct revelation, of confirming answers to direct prayer, as a method of discerning those writings which should, and should not, be in the canon.

Quite the opposite, actually. Whenever I talk to people about this, they react as if they are embarrassed by the mere possibility; they point to scholarship, intense research, and a reliance upon tradition…or Tradition. Those I have spoken to get rather embarrassed at the thought of inviting God into the process at all.

I am quite willing to believe that the reason I haven’t seen anything like this is because I haven’t been looking in the right places, or because the people talking to me aren’t communicating well…or something. I can only tell you what I have not found. If there is such a mention, then I would be grateful to be pointed at it.

 

[Stephen168]

Pay attention.

Catholics have declared that there is no more official revelation that results in scripture. There is nothing in Sacred Tradition that mentions direct revelation in confirming scripture. Lots of scholarship and study, yes…but nothing in there from direct answer to direct prayer–at least, nothing that I’ve read. I would like to see something that contradicts that, of course.

Mormons do not declare scripture. They have scripture confirmed TO them. There is quite a difference.

I have been paying attention to your absolute blind hated for the Catholic Church. Even a simple fact of history, like the Table of Contents of the New Testament is Catholic Tradition, provokes an attack by you.

After the irrational nature of your attack has been pointed out, you are now trying to make a distinction without a difference on the development of scripture. The Catholic Church took hundreds of years of prayerful contemplation and came up with the Canon of the New Testament. The Canon is part of our Sacred Tradition. The Mormon Church came up with the Book of Abraham.