Help with defending infant baptism

[pocohombre]

Well said!

Maybe we need to explain what is a Sacrament? before we try and explain Infant Baptism?

A Sacrament is an outward sign that gives inward holiness or grace to a person’s soul. Lord Jesus instituted the Sacraments. Jesus gave us these Sacraments as a way to convey His love. These Sacraments heal, feed and strengthen us. All the Sacraments were foreshadowed in the Old Testament and they are fulfilled in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, they did not actually convey grace but merely symbolized it. For example, since were talking about Infant Baptism, circumcision prefigured Baptism. When Christ came, he did not do away with God’s symbols of His love, but He super-naturalized them.

We have to remember that in an infant, although there is no actual sin, Original Sin still exists and has to be washed away. And, since we are all born without God’s love in our souls because of Original Sin, why wouldn’t we want that washed away from our infants so that God’s love can be poured into this tiny baby’s soul?

I think God is very pleased when we have that type of faith because we are doing what He says, “Do not hinder the little ones, let the children come to me.”

.

 

[pocohombre]

Baptism is not you accepting Christ

Baptism is Christ accepting you

If you could possible accept Christ then you are doing something in addition to Christ’s sacrifice to warrant your salvation and therefore Christ died for nothing. The very fact that you couch your understanding of baptism in language of wanting it implies the human will must activate and oblige God, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Remember if you could do something then you would have something about which to boast.

No. God accepts us in Baptism and creates in us the new life in the Spirit through Word and Sacrament. It is not volitional and it is not participatory it is a sign placed upon us by the Spirit through the working of the Church.

It is not an expression of the parent’s faith in the child. It is not an expression of the child wanting to be saved. It is a promise made good for the washing of sin and the rebirth in Christ by Word and Sacrament.

Period.

God Bless

Just quickly, so Christ does not take you as you are ? That is like me confessing, getting washed somwehow spiritualy, before going into the confessional to meet with the priest/Jesus . You are still doing something before He accepts you, like a work.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Cak7711:

First you have to except Christ by believing in him and having faith in him. Then you are baptized, representing the rebirth of your spirit. You cannot be baptized and then accept Christ. That’s like taking something and then asking permission. Actually that’s a bad analogy seeing that you don’t have to ask to be saved. But you still need to accept it before your are baptized. As for what happens to an infant after death; I couldn’t tell you. The bible was not very clear on that. So therefor we are entitled to our opinion, I agree with you that they still go to heaven. But all I know for sure is what Jesus told us.

I bolded your comment that needs to have something from Scripture PROVING this. There are just as many examples proving otherwise (infant baptism)

Jesus NEVER told us to keep the infants unbaptized. That is a Reformation novelty, and is not of Apostolic origin.

 

[peace2u2]

We have to baptized because we have the ability and desire to sin.

Baptism washes away Original Sin and all sin, but obviously if its an infant there is no actual sin. But in the case of an older child or an adult, any other actual sin would be washed away.

So, here is my next question, what happens after you are baptized and the next time you actually sin? Do you think the sin because of your baptism is still washed away?

 

[peace2u2]

Why would Jesus die on the cross if all we had to do to be saved was to blindly sprinkle water over our head.

Here is an excellent link on Pouring and Sprinkling versus Immersion:

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-IV

Acts 2:41 - at Peter’s first sermon, 3,000 were baptized. There is archeological proof that immersion would have been impossible in this area. Instead, these 3,000 people had to be sprinkled in water baptism.

 

[peace2u2]

What you forgot to mention is how every time a person or household was baptized they believed. They had faith in Christ.

When parents bring their child to be baptized they profess this faith in proxy and then the child would make this profession of faith as they get older. By the way, this profession of faith is proclaimed at Mass in the Profession of Faith:

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

 

[peace2u2]

There is a misunderstanding that comes from Infant Baptisms for some Protestants because they feel must one must have a conscious understanding of who they are receiving before the Sacrament can be administered to them. They even believe one must say yes to every reception of Grace even before the Grace can be sent to them. This is one of the problems Protestants have with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches administering the Sacraments for instance to babies. They will probably be more contentious with the Orthodox because the Orthodox do administer all the Sacraments all at the same time even at the age when the child is an infant. The real issue to them is their misunderstanding on how God administers His Grace. Does God need to require a yes or even an understanding to His Grace before His Grace can be administered. The answer to Catholics and Orthodox is no. Why then is the next question. The answer is simply God is not dependent on our actions when we are younger than we are older. The grace actually confers much better unto children and infants than unto adults or when people come the age of reason. God actually works better on infants and on the young.

He has a most terrible time with adults! If Jesus says let the children come to me He is referring to their incredible gift in receiving of His graces. Children can actually know more than adults! So the best time to give God to anyone is when they are young. When you become older the mind is not fitted to retain the same as when you were a child or an infant. The process of trying to get through to you will be more difficult if you are an adult. Children however have no problem in learning and grasping the truth. They are at that age opened to everything around them. This is why we in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will give the infant and children the Sacraments. They are more opened to keep that Grace and to grow within that Grace than if they were adults. The best reason is of course that children and infants who remain in the Church all of their lives will be better disposed in sharing their experiences of God than an adult would have if this adult is only converted later in life. The problem with later conversions is simply you have wasted your time to be without God therefore you are only limited to the experiences of God only as an adult.

This is why converted adults cannot relate the Gospel to children. It has escaped them when they had the chance when they were children. The Grace of God given to infants and to children can work miracles if these same infants and children stick with it. If they remain in Church all of their lives they will be the ones who will be better to relate the Gospel to children. The converted adult will just have problems relating to these same children.

I think your post is very important to point out that the Sacraments of Initiation are fully given to the infant in the Eastern Rite but in the Western Rite it is a process (Baptism as an infant, The Eucharist in 2nd grade (age of 7) and Confirmation in 9th grade) and I don’t know but I hardly ever hear of an Eastern Rite Catholic leaving their Catholic faith for Protestant faith but in the Western rite they leave their faith more frequently.

 

[ahs]

Infant Baptism needs to be understood in light of Original Sin.

True or False: Adam and Eve, when first created, were not subject to death.

True or False: After the first sin, not only Adam and Eve, but EVERY human on earth is now subject to death.

Question: Why am I not born in the Garden of Eden…in Paradise? Is it, perhaps, because I inhereted something from Adam and Eve?

Question: Are any babies born in Paradise, or are they all born in this fallen world, just like the rest of us? In other words, are there any pregnancy/birth stories that resulted in the baby, immediately upon birth from its mother’s womb, being whisked off, body and soul, into Paradise? Or are they all born here on earth?

Question: Does Paul tell us that Adam’s trangression led to condemnation of ALL men (Rom 5:18), or just to adults who were able to choose whether or not to sin?

Question: Does Paul say that infants are excluded from being subject to death until such time as they are able to choose sin and then be subject to death, or does Paul say that ALL are subject to death? (1Cor 15:21-22)

Question: Have there ever been any infants born into the world that didn’t die? At what point is an infant subject to death? (If you choose some random age, be ready to explain how some babies actually DO die before that age, yet they aren’t subject to death ). And why were they subject to death? (See Rom 5: 12-21 and 1Cor 15:21-22)

 

[ahs]

Okay, some of those questions were kinda ridiculous, but you get the point, OP. Whatever you want to call it, we ALL inhereit something from Adam and Eve…“fallen nature”, “original sin”, whatever. ALL of us will have to experience death at some point in our life, infants included. We are born with a nature that lacks something…GRACE. Hence, God’s covenant with the Jews (circumcision) that was fulfilled with Baptism.

The Catholic position is straight from the Bible. First, it is based on orginal sin as Scripture teaches us (see above). The necessity for God’s Grace is for ALL. NONE of us is not in need of God’s Grace. So why would we withold that from our babies??

The Catholic position is that Baptism is 1) a Sacrament which confers on us the Holy Spirit, 2) through which we are made members of Christ, and 3) Baptism saves us.

Baptism is sacramental (a visible sign, with an invisible grace, instituted by Christ) that confers the Holy Spirit, and washes away sin.

“I will sprinkle clean water upon you , and you shall be clean form all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.” (Ez 36:25-27)

“And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”” (Acts 2:38)

“And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling in his name.” (Acts 22:16)

Baptism makes us members of Christ…makes us “Christians” (and fulfills circumcision, gives entrance into the New Covenant)

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free – and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” (1Cor 12:13)

“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Gal 3:27)

“In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)

Baptism saves us

“…when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clean conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1Pet 3:20-21)

“Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”…”After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.” (Jn 3:5, 22)

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:19-20) (Final instruction to the Apostles)

 

[ahs]

Original Sin, all men contract it

“Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. He comes forth like a flower, and withers; he flees like a shadow and continues not. And dost thou open thy eyes upon such a one and bring him into judgment with thee? Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:1-4)

“What is man that he can be clean? Or he that is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?” (Job 15:14)

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me…Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” (Ps 51:5, 7)

“Do not reproach a man who is turning away from sin; remember that we all deserve punishment.” (Sirach 8:5)

“What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one.””…”since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Rom 3:9-12, etc…and Rom 3:23)

“12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned – 13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many may be made righteous. 20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Rom 5:12-21)

“For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1Cor 15:21-22)

“One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.” (Heb 7:9-10)

“Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.” (2Cor 5:17)

 

[ahs]

Circumcision is entrance into the Old Covenant
“You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring.” (Gen 17:11-12) (Note that it is given to adults first, who are able to then take it to children. And at eight days old, are the infants able to profess a belief in God or to proclaim that they wish to be in God’s family? The parents must profess this on behalf of the children. And even slaves are not left out…there are no exceptions to this covenant. We can see examples in the NT as well where a child is healed because of the faith of the father, or a slave healed by the faith of his master, even a paralytic healed because of the faith of his friends.)

“Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Gen 17:14)

“When Achior saw all that the God of Israel had done, he believed firmly in God. So he was circumcised, and joined the house of Israel, remaining so to this day.” (Judith 14:10)

The old is a foreshadowing of the new

“In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)

“For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near.” (Heb 10:1)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.” (Mt 5:7-18)

**Baptism is the entrance into the New Covenant **

“In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)

…and go right back to Baptism being a Sacrament…and there you have solid Biblical support for Infant Baptism, in light of Original Sin…thank you **John Martignoni **for the Scriptural references… ]

 

[pocohombre]

I bolded your comment that needs to have something from Scripture PROVING this. There are just as many examples proving otherwise (infant baptism)

Jesus NEVER told us to keep the infants unbaptized. That is a Reformation novelty, and is not of Apostolic origin.

Prove that you are baptized then saved.Or baptized then repent.

 

[ahs]

Prove that you are baptized then saved.Or baptized then repent.

…or we can just read what Scripture tells us (see my previous 3 posts).

Pocohombre, are infants subject to the penalty of sin (death)?

Does Christ want infants to be made members of His Kingdom?

 

[pocohombre]

I bolded your comment that needs to have something from Scripture PROVING this. There are just as many examples proving otherwise (infant baptism)

Jesus NEVER told us to keep the infants unbaptized. That is a Reformation novelty, and is not of Apostolic origin.

Actually there are no proofs,only evidences and convictions.Glad you say there are evidences, or just as many, for infant baptism as well as consenting children/adults.Actually less for infant baptism I believe( 2 cases-households).

 

[CaptFun]

Circumcision is entrance into the Old Covenant
“You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring.” (Gen 17:11-12) (Note that it is given to adults first, who are able to then take it to children. And at eight days old, are the infants able to profess a belief in God or to proclaim that they wish to be in God’s family? The parents must profess this on behalf of the children. And even slaves are not left out…there are no exceptions to this covenant. We can see examples in the NT as well where a child is healed because of the faith of the father, or a slave healed by the faith of his master, even a paralytic healed because of the faith of his friends.)

“Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Gen 17:14)

“When Achior saw all that the God of Israel had done, he believed firmly in God. So he was circumcised, and joined the house of Israel, remaining so to this day.” (Judith 14:10)

The old is a foreshadowing of the new

“In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)

“For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near.” (Heb 10:1)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.” (Mt 5:7-18)

**Baptism is the entrance into the New Covenant **

“In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)

…and go right back to Baptism being a Sacrament…and there you have solid Biblical support for Infant Baptism, in light of Original Sin…thank you **John Martignoni **for the Scriptural references… ]

Substantial posting! I appreciate the multiple page effort too, as it is not just about errant feelings and speculation but one thought provoking point after another, patiently done.

I thought your employment of “revealing absurdity by demonstrating it” in your Q & A segment was enjoyable and illuminating. :bowdown: < Goes too far, but thank you!

 

[Steveabrous]

Prove that you are baptized then saved.Or baptized then repent.

O.K. here’s your proof. 2 thes. 2:15
“So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”

Not everything is in scripture. As Paul says we are to hold fast to the teachings that are not in scripture and this is one of them. There is only one place to find these teachings THe Catholic church.

 

[ahs]

Substantial posting! I appreciate the multiple page effort too, as it is not just about errant feelings and speculation but one thought provoking point after another, patiently done.

I thought your employment of “revealing absurdity by demonstrating it” in your Q & A segment was enjoyable and illuminating. :bowdown: < Goes too far, but thank you!

Thanks for the kind words! The BibleChristianSociety does a great job defending Catholic teaching straight from the Bible. I’ve been listening to Martignoni for a couple months now…he’s great at putting things together. Most of the passages I put together were from his talk on Original Sin.

 

[pocohombre]

O.K. here’s your proof. 2 thes. 2:15
“So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”

Not everything is in scripture. As Paul says we are to hold fast to the teachings that are not in scripture and this is one of them. There is only one place to find these teachings THe Catholic church.

So early father barnabus was wrong when he said,So he that is learned in the lord’s commandments keep them, as many as are written ?

 

[pocohombre]

…or we can just read what Scripture tells us (see my previous 3 posts).

Pocohombre, are infants subject to the penalty of sin (death)?

Does Christ want infants to be made members of His Kingdom?

I don’t think any church teaches that infants go to hell by any means and limbo is out of vogue.

 

[pocohombre]

Let the children come to me does not help with infant baptism .The context is to have the faith of a child.Jesus says that.He does not say who is up there but what attributes are up there.