Yes I see your question as to 8 day old circumcision.Don’t think they taught child they were already regenerated but rather taught to believe ,taught them the ways of the Lord,the law. Don’t think they taught regeneration without belief first.
So, are you saying that circumcision was NOT the entrance into the old covenant, regardless of belief? That’s the opposite of what God said. God said, "You shall
circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. Throughout your generations
every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring.” (Gen 17:11-12) But look what else God says, “
Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Gen 17:14)
God said ANY one not circumcised has broken His covenant…regardless of whether the infant professed belief. Where are you seeing belief as a prerequisite here?
You just showed ,the baptism in death in Mark10:38 and Luke 12:50 <“but i have a baptism to undergo and am distressed till it is completed” Please note He goes on to say from now there will be division in a family, not peace, so any earlier circumcision/baptism of infants does not necessarily mean real regeneration. So the idea of all passing thru the red sea or households being saved might happen, but is not dogmatic, or ritualized or even the norm.
Wait, are you saying now that all Baptism will be this Baptism that Christ was talking about here…one of martyrdom? So when Christ says, “go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them…” He means that we should all be martyred??
Now perhaps you evade the question as I do yours.Your church as well as most others have answered that question,both now and in the past .I believe the CC stance has changed as i pointed out .If not the practice for centuries was unbaptized infant went to hell, if not limbo.Again the baptism /circumcision represents something bigger, faith,even repentance,discipleship .It is believe and be baptized,and if you don’t believe you go to hell, not if you don’t remain unbaptized you go to hell.So actually what does Jesus say if you are not baptized?
I’m not sure where I evaded anything. You didn’t ask me what the Church taught, you asked if I was Augustinian, etc… I said I am Catholic and that I don’t presume to know. And now you are asking the same question I just asked you…what did Jesus say. Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”…”After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.” (Jn 3:5, 22)
Yes, something, a stain. Whatever it was Christ took it on also willingly,according to Origen.
Okay, so we inherit a wounded nature from Adam and Eve…a “stain” so to speak. I’m not too familiar with what Origen said about it all, but I’d like to know what the Bible says about it. Paul tells us that, though through Adam’s sin all die, all can live through Christ. (cf. Rom 5:12-21, 1Cor 15:21-22). So HOW does Scripture tell us that this is accomplished? Again, doesn’t Paul spell it out rather plainly for us is Col 2:11-12, “In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” In fact, doesn’t Scripture tell us that in Baptism we have “put on Christ” (Gal 3:27)?
Thank you for the if but baptism does not put on Christ ,
Wait a minute…that’s the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Scripture says!! (Gal 3:27) Do you really expect me to believe the exact opposite of the Bible tells me?? (cf. Col 2:11-12, 1Cor 12:13, 1Pet 3:20-21, etc…)
…though it done almost at same time of what really puts on Christ, faith.
Again…that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible tells me that “baptism saves [me[/COLOR]]” (1Pet 3:20-21). The Bible DOES say that “those who believe might be saved”…but it does NOT say that this belief is the prerequisite to Baptism…the “baptism which saves”.
Tertullian asks why would any one want to deprive a child to reason for themselves to put on Christ, by personal faith and (baptism) ?
I’m not asking what Tertullian asked, and I think you take him out of context here anyway…as the only debate regarding infant Baptism that I have found in the early Church was whether or not to make an infant wait until 8 days of age.
What I AM asking you is…in light of the Bible telling us PLAINLY that “baptism saves” and “in baptism [we] put on Christ”, WHY would anyone want to withhold that from an infant?
