Help with faith alone

[DavidFilmer]

that’s taking what I said out of context.

Well, if you post only one sentence that seems to say something that is plainly obvious to most readers as clearly herisy, without any explanation, you don’t really have the right to accuse anybody of taking you “out of context.”

And what I’m saying, one who ignores them is putting their soul in peril.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DF

So, if I ignore EVERY appeal for money that I get in the mail, then my soul is in peril? If I answer ONE, am I OK? Or do I need to answer two? Or three? How many of these mailings to I need to send money to to be sure that my soul is not in peril? I get maybe ten or twelve appeals per week. If I “tithe” to these appeals, I would send money to one appeal every six or seven days. Is this sufficient to insure that my soul is not in peril? Does it matter which appeals I respond to? (after all, even if the appeal is a scam, my intent is motivated by charity, and it should not matter as far as my soul is concerned).
that’s taking what I said out of context.

OK, let me do this again. I will propose a statement of Doctrine: NOBODY on the face of the EARTH is EVER EXPECTED, as a CONDITION OF HIS SALVATION, to SEEK OUT and PERFORM ANY “GOOD WORK” (not including Baptism or Confession or any Catholic Sacramental rite or theological obligation (ie, the precepts of the Church)?

Do you **agree **or **disagree **with this clear statement of Catholic Doctrine, or can you show me anything in Catholic Doctrine that “proves” that my statement is not valid?

 

[steve_b]

OK, let me do this again. I will propose a statement of Doctrine: NOBODY on the face of the EARTH is EVER EXPECTED, as a CONDITION OF HIS SALVATION, to SEEK OUT and PERFORM ANY “GOOD WORK” (not including Baptism or Confession or any Catholic Sacramental rite or theological obligation (ie, the precepts of the Church)?

Do you **agree **or **disagree **with this clear statement of Catholic Doctrine, or can you show me anything in Catholic Doctrine that “proves” that my statement is not valid?

Why not make this easy. Quote the source of your proposed statement of doctrine…and that will settle it…right?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Why not make this easy. Quote the source of your proposed statement of doctrine…and that will settle it…right?

I can’t prove a negative (nobody can - it is a philosophical impossibility - look it up). I have respected you in the past, but you disappoint me here.

No Catholic is EVER required to abide by ANY teaching that is NOT taught by the Church. If YOU wish to impose any obligation upon any Catholic, you ought to be able to cite where such an obligation is required. You are not free to “cite” any obligation (such as am “obligation to light fireworks on the Fourth of July for American Catholics”) without CITING any such obligation.

I am not REQUIRED to CITE anything that says that Catholics are not actually required to light fireworks on the Fourth of July (at least in the United States) in order to prove that no such obligation exists.

The burden of proof lies upon YOU. I do not need to DISPROVE anything, You need to CITE the authentic Catholic Doctrine that supports your belief. You cannot require ME to dispute the flawed ideas that you propose (because, for one thing, the Catholic Church does not officially refute MANY heretical ideas). But the Church DOES teach the Doctrine of the Church. THAT is what I am asking you to CITE. Nothing else. That ought not to be an unreasonable request.

 

[steve_b]

I can’t prove a negative (nobody can - it is a philosophical impossibility - look it up). I have respected you in the past, but you disappoint me here.

No Catholic is EVER required to abide by ANY teaching that is NOT taught by the Church. If YOU wish to impose any obligation upon any Catholic, you ought to be able to cite where such an obligation is required. You are not free to “cite” any obligation (such as am “obligation to light fireworks on the Fourth of July for American Catholics”) without CITING any such obligation.

I am not REQUIRED to CITE anything that says that Catholics are not actually required to light fireworks on the Fourth of July (at least in the United States) in order to prove that no such obligation exists.

The burden of proof lies upon YOU. I do not need to DISPROVE anything, You need to CITE the authentic Catholic Doctrine that supports your belief. You cannot require ME to dispute the flawed ideas that you propose (because, for one thing, the Catholic Church does not officially refute MANY heretical ideas). But the Church DOES teach the Doctrine of the Church. THAT is what I am asking you to CITE. Nothing else. That ought not to be an unreasonable request.

Now how did you get all that when all I said was

Why not make this easy. Quote the source of your proposed statement of doctrine…and that will settle it…right?

 

[Lion_Heart]

OK, let me do this again. I will propose a statement of Doctrine: NOBODY on the face of the EARTH is EVER EXPECTED, as a CONDITION OF HIS SALVATION, to SEEK OUT and PERFORM ANY “GOOD WORK” (not including Baptism or Confession or any Catholic Sacramental rite or theological obligation (ie, the precepts of the Church)?

Do you **agree **or **disagree **with this clear statement of Catholic Doctrine, or can you show me anything in Catholic Doctrine that “proves” that my statement is not valid?

Greetings in Christ DavidFilmer,

Every doctrine of the salvation of the Catholic Church proves the above statement of Doctrine is correct. Some example:-

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be saved?
We are NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. (Emphasize mine.)

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE by James Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.

Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible:

“The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church.” (Denzinger 1576, 1582)

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasis mine.

If we believe: Work is condition of our salvation, then our works can NEVER BE UP TO THE ABOVE STANDARDS because we do it for ourselves to purchase salvation not for love and for the Glory of God, and ALL our work goes up in smoke at the judgment. In reference to 1 Cor.3:11-15.

CANNOT BE OVER EMPHASIZE: This is THE KEY to do supernatural merit that God accepts and recognize!!! – There is NO other way to achieve supernatural merit which is the only good works.

The doctrines of salvation of the Catholic Church not only proves:- DavidFilmer’s, statement of Doctrine is correct, but also proves, those who disagree with it, all their life time hard works goes up in smoke at the judgment of their works, because they did it to purchase their salvation and NOT for the GLORY OF GOD.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[rfournier103]

Matthew 25:31-46 ~

Jesus said to his disciples:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory,
and all the angels with him,
he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him.
And he will separate them one from another,
as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right,
'Come, you who are blessed by my Father.
Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me,
ill and you cared for me,
in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,
or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you,
or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply,
'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did
for one of the least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left,
'Depart from me, you accursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome,
naked and you gave me no clothing,
ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison,
and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you,
what you did not do for one of these least ones,
you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment,
but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revalation 22:12 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.”

What do you think?

 

[JonNC]

Matthew 25:31-46 ~

Jesus said to his disciples:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory,
and all the angels with him,
he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him.
And he will separate them one from another,
as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right,
'Come, you who are blessed by my Father.
Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me,
ill and you cared for me,
in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,
or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you,
or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply,
'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did
for one of the least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left,
'Depart from me, you accursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome,
naked and you gave me no clothing,
ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison,
and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you,
what you did not do for one of these least ones,
you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment,
but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revalation 22:12 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.”

What do you think?

I think, Amen, come Lord Jesus. And I would add the end of the Athanasian Creed:

** He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. **

Jon

 

[Contarini]

I know this has been debated to death but I need some help. Some people believe if you have faith alone then by God’s Grace you are saved. Others believe you have to have good works to go along with faith in order to be saved. While others say that good works is just a reflection of faith and go together.

I guess what I am trying to figure out is does there have to be good works to go with faith to be saved or not. “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17) Is one thing that comes up. Also many verses on faith alone. I also hear people say Salvation is a gift from God lest any man should boast.

Thanks for any help you can provide. I would like to wish you all a Merry Christmas and God bless.

There’s no disagreement among Catholics, Orthodox, and traditional Protestants about whether you have to have works along with faith. Pretty much all Christians agree that the faith that saves is a faith accompanied by works.

The point of difference is whether one can have faith without works (which would then not save you). Catholics believe you can–Protestants traditionally believe that such 'faith" isn’t really faith at all but is just an opinion that happens to be about God.

So in that sense it’s Catholics who believe in “faith alone”–not that you are saved by it, but that it can exist in the first place.

Protestants believe that “we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone.”

Catholics believe “faith can be alone, and when it is it isn’t enough to save you.”

Also, it isn’t so much faith + works as faith + love. All Christians agree, again, that if you have the love of God poured out in your heart you will do good works. Protestants believe that anyone who has true faith will have the love of God in their hearts. Catholics don’t.

Interestingly, St. Paul seems to agree with the Catholic position in 1 Corinthians 13. He speaks of having faith without love and says that such faith is unprofitable. Now it’s possible that he’s speaking rhetorically of a situation that could never really happen. But insofar as the Bible addresses the issue, it seems to weigh in on the Catholic side.

So while Protestants claim that their view is Biblical, I think their strength is actually not so much in exegesis as in pastoral experience. The evangelical Protestant way of talking about it is a more powerful impetus to conversion and repentance for people who are baptized and accept Christian doctrine but aren’t living a Christian life. Catholics say to such people, “you have faith, but you don’t have charity, so go to confession and do good works.” Evangelical Protestants say, “you have dead faith and that means that you are in the same spiritual position as an unbeliever: repent and trust in Jesus to save you.”

I agree with Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa that Catholics need to find better ways of evangelizing the baptized and proclaiming faith in Jesus for salvation without violating their own doctrine, which is solidly based in Scripture and Tradition.

Edwin

 

[Lion_Heart]

Matthew 25:31-46 ~

Jesus said to his disciples:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory,
and all the angels with him,
he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him.
And he will separate them one from another,
as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right,
'Come, you who are blessed by my Father.
Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me,
ill and you cared for me,
in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,
or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you,
or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply,
'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did
for one of the least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left,
'Depart from me, you accursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome,
naked and you gave me no clothing,
ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison,
and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you,
what you did not do for one of these least ones,
you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment,
but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revalation 22:12 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.”

What do you think?

Greetings in Christ Frournier103

What I think is described in the two following doctrines of the Catholic Church.

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be saved?
We are NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. (Emphasize mine.)

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

4/38 When CATHOLICS AFFIRM the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward IN heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize, justification (salvation) ALWAYS remains the UNMERITED gift of grace.

Frournier103 You have cited Revelation 22:12 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.”

According to Catholic doctrines:- What do you think?
The recompense/reward what will be and definitely what CAN NOT be?

With love in Christ,
LH