HELP with Jewish relative

[Odell]

MY RESPONSE TO AN EARLER EMAIL

I would like to start by saying I could give just as many educated seminary educated doctorate degree Jews who have wrote books and became Christians. would you consider listening to them? the 12 apostles are a few they had there eyes open to truth would you please consider? I want to respond for Dee It wasnt to long ago you where telling me that Jesus could not be the messia because he did not keep all of gods laws. But in a email to Dee all of a sudden he did? Jesus indeed kept the Law as a Jew but as a Christian we no longer follow the law of old. A study of the New testament would tell you this. As a Chritian I keep to the Law of Christ Paul says he is under it in 1 Cor 9:21 “I am not outside God’s law but within the law of Christ.”

Her response

Zahava: I emailed that Jesus is not the messiah because he did not fufill any of the requirements of the messiah, L.T. Also, I said that he sinned on Shabbos by plucking grain from the fields, which is not permitted on Shabbos. The N.T. shows that he kept Passover, correct? He kept Shabbos – He wore tzizits as a religious Jew would.

Jesus indeed kept the Law as a Jew but as a Christian we no longer follow the law of old. A study of the New testament would tell you this.

Zahava: Then you do not follow Jesus, L.T. as you should know what Jesus said about keeping the commandments. Do read Matthew 5:17-19 Paul spits in the face of Jesus by teaching others that keeping the 613 commandments is no longer necessary. Let’s take a look at just a few of the commandments that Paul says are now “nailed to the cross” but again - Jesus said to keep them in Matthew. Do we listen to Paul? You can, L.T. but I will follow the commandments of G-d and follow his Torah.Positive Mitzvah 19: Grace after Meals
Deuteronomy 8:10 "When you have eaten and are satisfied then you must bless G-d"Negative Mitzvah 302: It is forbidden to hate one another
Leviticus 19:17 "You shall not hate your brother in your heart"Positive Mitzvah 154: Resting on Shabbat
Exodus 23:12 "And on the seventh day you shall rest"Positive Mitzvah 163: Resting on Rosh HaShanah
Leviticus 23:24 "In the seventh month, on the first day of that month, there shall be a day of rest for you"Negative Mitzvah 197: It is forbidden to eat Chametz on Passover
Exodus 13:3 “No leavened bread shall be eaten” ALSO, WHAT PART OF FOREVER DO XTIANS NOT UNDERSTAND IN THE FOLLOWING?? Exodus 12:14-15
"This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast. Positive Mitzvah 106: Impurity of a “Zavah”
Leviticus 15:1 “And if a woman has a discharge…” L.T., Jewish religious women have ALWAYS kept family purity laws. When our monthly cycle comes - we separate from our husbands as commanded by G-d! We do not hold relations for 14 days - we sleep in separate beds - we don’t touch - we don’t hold hands - we don’t kiss for 14 days as commanded until after we go an immerse in the mikveh waters. And you would have me to believe Paul? That this is not to be kept? Tell that to all the Jewish women Positive Mitzvah 210: Honoring our Parents
Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother"Positive Mitzvah 211: Revering our Parents
Leviticus 19:3 "Every man shall revere his mother and father"Positive Mitzvah 207: Loving a Convert
Deuteronomy 10:19 "Love the convert"Negative Mitzvah 318: It is forbidden to curse parents
Exodus 21:17 “And one that curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death” and the list goes on and on… beautiful Torah - DO READ PSALM 119 L.T

 

[Odell]

For the full context of our debate here is the rest of the Email I sent her

That Law is a Law of love see Paul says in the bible that we are not bound by the Law Rom 7:4 Gal 2:19 but on the other hand he also writes that the law is not cancelled but upheld Rom 3:31 he writes “do we then over throw the law by this faith? By no means on the contrary we wuhold the law”

The harmony between these verses is in his teaching that by loving we keep the law. Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything excepct to love each other for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. gal 5:14 for the whole law is fulfilled in one word You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” (Rom 3:20) mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something. The view that developed under the Old Covenant).

consider these verses Gal 3: Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed…who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. … **21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. **22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

The purpose of the Law was not to remove or take away the promise to Abraham. The Law was put in place to point to the coming Messiah, keep people in line, and expose sin. V21 says plainly, the law lacks the power to give spiritual life. THIS is why the Law doesn’t save and THIS is why Paul says salvation is apart from works of the Law, the Law was never intended BY ITSELF to save, it was a means to an end.

and unfortunatly many Protestants think the option is “either keep the law perfectly to be justified or by faith believe Jesus kept it for you.” That is illogical because the Law was never intended to save. Paul is not attacking any and all works, he is attacking a system which lacks the power to save. 2 Cor 3: 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

This is a very powerful passage.
The contrast of “stone tablets” to “life giving Spirit” is the key to understanding Paul’s teaching against the Law. The tablets here are nothing short of the 10 Commandments which Moses gave and when his face shined (Ex 34:28ff). The Law is the “ministry of death” not because it is evil, but because it is used to expose sin and put people on track, and most of all because it could only point out faults (condemn) but not impart life. Only the Spirit Indwelling in us can impart life, and with that we are enabled to fulfill the essence of the law which is Love (Rom 13:8-13; 2:13; 8:3-4). And see the law was intended to lead to Christ not a systom where God ows us something in return of keeping laws. The law leads to Christ thats why Dee and other Chritians choose not to follow 600 some laws we chose to live by the law of Christ LOVE

 

[Odell]

Thanks in advance. I will respod to her later tonight when I get some responses

I will keep you posted

 

[Philthy]

Hi Odell -

I’m not sure how much help I will be for you, but I will give it a try.
First off, there are two sets of OT law. The 10 Commandments and the dietary/ritual laws. All of these laws, in their entirety are summarized as “loving God and loving one’s neighbor” The 10 Commandments are clearly directed at love of God and neighbor - they “make sense” to us intellectually and to our conscience. They remain in full effect for the Christian.
The dietary, sacrificial and ritual laws make no sense whatsoever. They do not appeal to our moral conscience at all. It is unclear how they advance the directive of loving God and neighbor. I challenge any Jew to explain the purpose of a dietary law - I suggest you press your Aunt on this. Why did God institute the dietary/ritual laws thousands of years into the history of man? The 10 Commandments have always been in effect - ie though shalt kill - why the delay in these other laws?The only possible response is the God has commanded it and out of love of God I obey it. Beyond that there is no inherent goodness of them. During the time that God kept Israel separate in advancing His plan of salvation they allowed the Jews to separate themselves from others, and in that sense they provided some good.
So the 10 Commandments are inherently good while the dietary/ritual laws do not per se accomplish any good. They merely served to separate Israel and to bring judgement upon those who chose to disregard them out of disrespect for God.
The dietary/ritual laws do not impart eternal life or a righteous standing before God - if they did then how could Abraham, our father in faith, have been declared righteous apart from the law?

I’ll now try to address some of her specific objections:

ALSO, WHAT PART OF FOREVER DO XTIANS NOT UNDERSTAND IN THE FOLLOWING?? Exodus 12:14-15

My reply is that I understand it, but differently. We do keep the memorial to the Passover feast, for Christ is the unblemished lamb of God who was slain and who takes away the sins of the world. That sacrifice is celebrated in the Eucharist…
I would also point out that that technically “the entire assembly” of Israel is to gather to slaughter the lamb (Ex 12:3)- does she do this? Every Jew from every part of the world???

We do not hold relations for 14 days - we sleep in separate beds - we don’t touch - we don’t hold hands - we don’t kiss for 14 days as commanded until after we go an immerse in the mikveh waters.

Fourteen days??? I’m not sure where that came from. Also, the waters are fine, but she seems to have conveniently ignored the sacrifices that were prescribed:
“And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the tent of meeting. And the priest shall offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her before the LORD for her unclean discharge.”
Is she following this or not? If not, why not? If this portion of the law can be dispensed of, why can no other portion of it be dispensed of?

Her last set of objections regarding honoring mother and father have me confused. Does she somehow believe that Christians are free to violate this Commandment? She is mistaken and Paul teaches no such thing - neither did Christ. Paul specifically warns Christians that anyone who disobeys the 10 Commandments (he lists several to the 1st Cor) “will not inherit the kingdom of God” As I said near the beginning, the 10 Commandments remain in full force because they are inherently good: they reflect love of God and neighbor, which is the fulfillment of the law. She continues to confuse the Mosaic law with the Levitical law. The former remains in force, the latter does not.

I hope this helps. Somehow you have to love her where she is - to trust that she is following God’s will for her life. Radiate the joy of Christ in your life and emphasize what you share in common with her (Love of God and love of neighbor). Trust in God’s mercy and be merciful to one another. After all, as the Lord says, “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hi,

I’m not exactly sure what her question is. She does not seem open to what you have to say yet.

One issue which I would bring up is this: There has not been a Temple for 2000 years and the Levitical Priesthood is totally lost. The Torah REVOLVES around the priests and sacrifices, yet this has been literally gone for about 2,000 years.
At the VERY LEAST Jews need to ask the question if God is trying to tell them something here. At the very least they have to look into who Jesus was and possibly if He really was the Messiah.

For about 2,000 years there has been no Moses figure, no divinely appointed King, no Levitical priesthood, no Temple, no sacrifices, no prophets, no new Scriptures, etc, etc. The Torah, which they consider God’s supreme Law, is literally out of commission for 2,000 years. This should be a red flag. The current set up with Rabbis leading should have been a very temporary phenomenon, not something that lasted 2,000 years. It has no basis in the Torah.

 

[Philthy]

Hi,

I’m not exactly sure what her question is. She does not seem open to what you have to say yet.

One issue which I would bring up is this: There has not been a Temple for 2000 years and the Levitical Priesthood is totally lost. The Torah REVOLVES around the priests and sacrifices, yet this has been literally gone for about 2,000 years.
At the VERY LEAST Jews need to ask the question if God is trying to tell them something here. At the very least they have to look into who Jesus was and possibly if He really was the Messiah.

For about 2,000 years there has been no Moses figure, no divinely appointed King, no Levitical priesthood, no Temple, no sacrifices, no prophets, no new Scriptures, etc, etc. The Torah, which they consider God’s supreme Law, is literally out of commission for 2,000 years. This should be a red flag. The current set up with Rabbis leading should have been a very temporary phenomenon, not something that lasted 2,000 years. It has no basis in the Torah.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

As for Jesus eating grain on the Sabbath:
Mark 2: 23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 25He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

 

[tuviskazinai]

Hi there,

I just wanted to mention that this exchange reminds me of a really beautiful passage in Pope Benedict’s book, “Jesus of Nazareth.” It has been a while since I’ve read it, but let me see if I can remember it.

Benedict considers the objection to Christianity of the esteemed Rabbi Jacob Neusner, who says that he cannot accept Christ precisely because Christ broke the commandments against honoring the Sabbath and one’s father and mother. (Just like your relative suggests.) Benedict says that this objection was so interesting that it got him to understand Jesus in a way he never had before, which inspired him to write the book.

If I remember correctly, the Holy Father writes in his book that Jesus instituted the “Church” – which is the mystical body of Christ Himself. Before the idea of “Church” came into play, one needed to observe certain laws and belong to a Jewish family in order to be one of God’s people. But because Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and because the Church is God’s true family (which doesn’t exclude anyone based on parentage, but whose membership is, on the contrary, open to all and completely voluntary), we need to understand those Commandments a little differently.

This doesn’t mean ignoring them or doing away with them. It just means that they need to be understood in light of the coming of Christ. If one leaves one’s father’s funeral to follow Jesus, who leads to the Heavenly Father, then one has done no dishonor to anyone. (see also Matthew 10:37) And if there is anyone that can grant an indulgence from the Sabbath law, it is Jesus, who as God Himself is the one the Sabbath was made to honor in the first place.

I may be getting some of this wrong, and I am certainly not as eloquent as the Holy Father is! Anyway, you may suggest it as “recommended reading” in case your relative is interested. The tone of the chapter is extremely respectful – even, adulatory – towards the Rabbi’s Jewish perspective. Rabbi Neusner was so taken aback by the charitable nature of Benedict’s book that he is reported to have said, “The Pope has just written me a love letter.”

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[ryanoneil]

ALSO, WHAT PART OF FOREVER DO XTIANS NOT UNDERSTAND IN THE FOLLOWING?? Exodus 12:14-15
"This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.

**
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

“You know that in two days’ time it will be Passover, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.” (Mt 26:2)

He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. (Luke 22:15-20)
**